North London Powershift

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Re: North London Powershift

Postby thebigbangtheo » Fri May 17, 2019 1:17 pm

Angelito wrote:You people are indeed sick.

Imagine praying for someone's destruction rather than hoping for the club's first ever Europa League trophy.

If it came down to both losing or both winning—Spurs winning the UCL and Arsenal winning the EL—I'd go for the latter. We're not some suicide bomber who would go bombing everyone, including your own, just because you are consumed with hatred.

Also, I have no idea why some Gooners are acting like the two are inter-related. Ya know, geniuses, by any chance it could occur that Liverpool win the UCL and Arsenal win the EL, or Spurs win the UCL and Chelsea win the EL.

I know. Shock horror, right?

People who're speaking out of their emotions seem to have no consideration over the financial implications of us missing out on a CL berth for a 3rd season running. We could do what Wenger did from 07-12—participate in the UCL, whilst winning no trophies—and still be in a better position than we are currently. We need that UCL berth because Stanley man ain't going to put any of his $$$$$ into our club. It's for the short-term future of the club.

If it did come down to the unique scenario of both European Trophies heading to North London, so be it. I'd rather hope we embarrass the lot in the Supercup.

But then again, Klopp is winning the UCL this time. Third time's the charm. So nada worries.


I echo a similar outlook. However, I do find it ironic that I have often heard criticism of our club on numerous issues for portraying a small club mentality, yet here we are contemplating the very epitome of small time mentality.

Arsenal fans who want to measure our history, character, philosophy and very essence of being a gooner by the failure of Tottenham. Wow. Words I never imagined would ever cross my lips even if aided and abetted by uncle Wray.

That the mentality exists where we would rather lose a final on the proviso that spurs would also lose their more prestigious final is tantamount to self castration to me. If they were to win and we lose to Chelsea is the only worse case scenario to me.

Man Utd went something like thirty years without a title, even enduring the ignominy of relegation. That's why for their fans 1999 was the sweetest year ever seen on a calendar.

Get in your time machine, go back fifteen years or so to the remnants of Maine Road and tell those league one city fans about winning the premier league this year never mind last or the Aguero one as well as being won with 3 different managers.

The best part of being in a position to dish it out is having come from enduring having had to take it.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby Phil71 » Fri May 17, 2019 1:37 pm

theHotHead wrote:Dele Alli is shit!


That song they sing...

Fuckin ell mate. It's enough to make you turn off the game.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby thebigbangtheo » Fri May 17, 2019 4:31 pm

UFGN wrote:At the moment they are ahead

If we finish the season above them they can consider themselves back in their box

If that does happen then I think questions have to be asked yet again about their ambition and in particular Poch

They carry on like this is some sort of golden era for them

But.....

Still won f**k all

Still won f**k all

Still won f**k all


There's tempting fate and then there's poking it with a shit covered stick.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby UFGN » Fri May 17, 2019 9:00 pm

thebigbangtheo wrote:
UFGN wrote:At the moment they are ahead

If we finish the season above them they can consider themselves back in their box

If that does happen then I think questions have to be asked yet again about their ambition and in particular Poch

They carry on like this is some sort of golden era for them

But.....

Still won f**k all

Still won f**k all

Still won f**k all


There's tempting fate and then there's poking it with a shit covered stick.


STILL WON f**k ALL
Oh he is awful..... but I like him!
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby theHotHead » Sat May 18, 2019 1:45 am

Angelito wrote:
People who're speaking out of their emotions seem to have no consideration over the financial implications of us missing out on a CL berth for a 3rd season running. We could do what Wenger did from 07-12—participate in the UCL, whilst winning no trophies—and still be in a better position than we are currently. We need that UCL berth because Stanley man ain't going to put any of his $$$$$ into our club. It's for the short-term future of the club.

I don't agree with this. Up until recently Spurs were only in the Europa League, they didn't have any CL money but were able to combine shrewd purchases with some home-growns and get a good manager in. Now they are a genuine CL competitor and that took 2-3 years max from where they were!!

Missing out on CL money for a few seasons should not be what prevents us getting back in to the CL, we only have to look down the Seven Sisters road to see that.

And their owner doesn't put much of his money into the club either.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby Fran Solo » Sat May 18, 2019 4:34 am

theHotHead wrote:
Angelito wrote:
People who're speaking out of their emotions seem to have no consideration over the financial implications of us missing out on a CL berth for a 3rd season running. We could do what Wenger did from 07-12—participate in the UCL, whilst winning no trophies—and still be in a better position than we are currently. We need that UCL berth because Stanley man ain't going to put any of his $$$$$ into our club. It's for the short-term future of the club.

I don't agree with this. Up until recently Spurs were only in the Europa League, they didn't have any CL money but were able to combine shrewd purchases with some home-growns and get a good manager in. Now they are a genuine CL competitor and that took 2-3 years max from where they were!!

Missing out on CL money for a few seasons should not be what prevents us getting back in to the CL, we only have to look down the Seven Sisters road to see that.

And their owner doesn't put much of his money into the club either.


We can say the same thing about Liverpool, right?
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby theHotHead » Sat May 18, 2019 7:43 am

Well yes we can say the exact same thing about Liverpool too. So there are 2 clear examples of how clubs changed their fortunes around within a couple of seasons.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Sat May 18, 2019 8:08 am

theHotHead wrote:I don't agree with this. Up until recently Spurs were only in the Europa League, they didn't have any CL money but were able to combine shrewd purchases with some home-growns and get a good manager in. Now they are a genuine CL competitor and that took 2-3 years max from where they were!!

Missing out on CL money for a few seasons should not be what prevents us getting back in to the CL, we only have to look down the Seven Sisters road to see that.

And their owner doesn't put much of his money into the club either.


Trouble is you're thinking about 'until recently' and just missing the huge change that's happened in the last three years ... last time we played in the CL the total prize money for the winner was around 55m, we made about 45m that year .... this season both Spurs and Liverpool will clear 110m with City and Utd picking up close to 100m

To put that into perspective that's the same income as they make from ticket sales for the entire season ... losing out on the CL is the same as playing your entire season behind closed doors ... it matters

But that's not all, it's conservatively estimated that being a consistent CL last eight side is worth at least 50m in marketing and sponsorship. So being a regular contender, then having a CL run to the final, so prize money and marketing could be worth as much as 150m to the two finalists, and not much less for all the last eight.

Now sure getting to the EL final has probably been worth 20m in prize money, but frankly from a sponsors perspective it's not worth much else.

So maybe five years ago losing out on 25m by playing EL not CL was bad, but not a disaster ... however today losing out on a potential extra 130m that a CL final brings over EL final, now that's a whole new level of tragic ....

To pretend that missing out on the CL doesn't make much difference, that's head in the sand thinking, we need to win in Baku or have City thrown out, another season in the EL will crush our finances just as it has done for the last two seasons .... just as the noisy neighbours have cash raining down on them we will be putting out the begging bowl ... we simply can't afford to let that happen
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby PairyGrows » Sat May 18, 2019 8:17 am

Whether we win the Europa League or not doesn't change my argument. If Spurs win the Champions League, they will have bragging rights over us forever in that regard. I, for one, think Arsenal will never win the Champions League. I don't think I can take the banter from Spurs fans for the rest of my days.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby theHotHead » Sat May 18, 2019 2:14 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I don't agree with this. Up until recently Spurs were only in the Europa League, they didn't have any CL money but were able to combine shrewd purchases with some home-growns and get a good manager in. Now they are a genuine CL competitor and that took 2-3 years max from where they were!!

Missing out on CL money for a few seasons should not be what prevents us getting back in to the CL, we only have to look down the Seven Sisters road to see that.

And their owner doesn't put much of his money into the club either.


Trouble is you're thinking about 'until recently' and just missing the huge change that's happened in the last three years ... last time we played in the CL the total prize money for the winner was around 55m, we made about 45m that year .... this season both Spurs and Liverpool will clear 110m with City and Utd picking up close to 100m

To put that into perspective that's the same income as they make from ticket sales for the entire season ... losing out on the CL is the same as playing your entire season behind closed doors ... it matters

But that's not all, it's conservatively estimated that being a consistent CL last eight side is worth at least 50m in marketing and sponsorship. So being a regular contender, then having a CL run to the final, so prize money and marketing could be worth as much as 150m to the two finalists, and not much less for all the last eight.

Now sure getting to the EL final has probably been worth 20m in prize money, but frankly from a sponsors perspective it's not worth much else.

So maybe five years ago losing out on 25m by playing EL not CL was bad, but not a disaster ... however today losing out on a potential extra 130m that a CL final brings over EL final, now that's a whole new level of tragic ....

To pretend that missing out on the CL doesn't make much difference, that's head in the sand thinking, we need to win in Baku or have City thrown out, another season in the EL will crush our finances just as it has done for the last two seasons .... just as the noisy neighbours have cash raining down on them we will be putting out the begging bowl ... we simply can't afford to let that happen

I'm not putting my head in the sand at all, its all relative. and your numbers are way off ! TV revenue is based on the strength of the TV deal with the relative leagues, see the official UEFA CL distribution figures https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510173.html

Arsenal/British clubs CL revenue to Last 16 only.
2014 - €36m (Arsenal)
2015 - €53m (Arsenal)
2016 - €64.5m (Arsenal)
2017 - €56.1m (Liverpool)

2016 CL winners - Real Madrid €81m, Runner up - Juventus €110.4m. Even Leicester who got to the QFs earned €81m

As a comparison - 2014 CL winners - Barcelona €61m, Runner up - Juventus €89.1m.

As for it being relative, CL money may have increased slightly but player costs have also increased, so our earned €36m in 2014 would probably get the same quality player in 2017 that €56.1m would've bought.
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Sat May 18, 2019 3:54 pm

theHotHead wrote:I'm not putting my head in the sand at all, its all relative. and your numbers are way off ! TV revenue is based on the strength of the TV deal with the relative leagues, see the official UEFA CL distribution figures https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510173.html

Arsenal/British clubs CL revenue to Last 16 only.
2014 - €36m (Arsenal)
2015 - €53m (Arsenal)
2016 - €64.5m (Arsenal)
2017 - €56.1m (Liverpool)

2016 CL winners - Real Madrid €81m, Runner up - Juventus €110.4m. Even Leicester who got to the QFs earned €81m

As a comparison - 2014 CL winners - Barcelona €61m, Runner up - Juventus €89.1m.

As for it being relative, CL money may have increased slightly but player costs have also increased, so our earned €36m in 2014 would probably get the same quality player in 2017 that €56.1m would've bought.


No idea why you are referencing a 2017 press release .... try the latest actual Arsenal accounts and UEFA's own current site ....

https://www.arsenal.com/the-club/corporate-info/arsenal-holdings-financial-results
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2562033.html

If you're claiming that the club and UEFA are both wrong then by all means give us your sources ..............

As for relative .... I'm comparing this year's CL finalists earnings with this year's EL earnings ... the difference will be about 80m, add to that the very obvious difference in sponsors payments, and it's a huge advantage to be in the CL .... doh!

It has feck all to do with player costs in 2014, who cares about that ... it's all about today's income ... just to remind you Arsenal's latest profit before tax 70.2m Spuds profit before tax a club world record 138.9m and that was before they got the shiny new toilet-bowl ....

https://www.arsenal.com/news/financial-results-201718
https://www.ft.com/content/bec65898-56ca-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc16e

So why the huge difference? Some cost variances but almost entirely because they are in the CL and we are not ..... same goes for all the top six, miss the CL and you take about an 80m hit ..... we simply can't afford to keep doing that
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby theHotHead » Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I'm not putting my head in the sand at all, its all relative. and your numbers are way off ! TV revenue is based on the strength of the TV deal with the relative leagues, see the official UEFA CL distribution figures https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510173.html

Arsenal/British clubs CL revenue to Last 16 only.
2014 - €36m (Arsenal)
2015 - €53m (Arsenal)
2016 - €64.5m (Arsenal)
2017 - €56.1m (Liverpool)

2016 CL winners - Real Madrid €81m, Runner up - Juventus €110.4m. Even Leicester who got to the QFs earned €81m

As a comparison - 2014 CL winners - Barcelona €61m, Runner up - Juventus €89.1m.

As for it being relative, CL money may have increased slightly but player costs have also increased, so our earned €36m in 2014 would probably get the same quality player in 2017 that €56.1m would've bought.


No idea why you are referencing a 2017 press release .... try the latest actual Arsenal accounts and UEFA's own current site ....

https://www.arsenal.com/the-club/corporate-info/arsenal-holdings-financial-results
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2562033.html

If you're claiming that the club and UEFA are both wrong then by all means give us your sources ..............

As for relative .... I'm comparing this year's CL finalists earnings with this year's EL earnings ... the difference will be about 80m, add to that the very obvious difference in sponsors payments, and it's a huge advantage to be in the CL .... doh!

It has feck all to do with player costs in 2014, who cares about that ... it's all about today's income ... just to remind you Arsenal's latest profit before tax 70.2m Spuds profit before tax a club world record 138.9m and that was before they got the shiny new toilet-bowl ....

https://www.arsenal.com/news/financial-results-201718
https://www.ft.com/content/bec65898-56ca-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc16e

So why the huge difference? Some cost variances but almost entirely because they are in the CL and we are not ..... same goes for all the top six, miss the CL and you take about an 80m hit ..... we simply can't afford to keep doing that

HUH????

You said the last time we were in the CL the winner got £55m. No they didn't, I showed what the winner got the last time we were in the CL and it was €81m, in 2016. I then showed 2014 as a comparison which shows that CL revenue has not increased that much. I also showed what British clubs got for the CL up to the last 16 - which is typically as far as Arsenal have been getting. I am referencing the actual UEFA document that shows EVERY CLUB's EARNINGS in the CL in that year and the breakdown per round and the TV revenue!! Do you not know-how "referencing" works??? I don't give a f**k what Arsenal's accounts say, accounts can be spun in many different ways, UEFA's payments to the clubs are black and white.

You say you are referencing this year's earnings, thats rubbish because you have no idea what the Market Pool for the clubs will be because you don't have the foggiest clue what each country has negotiated with UEFA. Hence why I used the latest published full results from UEFA that shows the breakdown for each club, in each round and their Market Pool payment, to get an exact figure, not some estimate or made up figure you worked out !!! the latest available figures from UEFA are 2017/18 season.

Wanna know how much the winner got for the 2017/18 season ?? Real Madrid got €88.6m, Liverpool the runner up got €81.2m. Totals ! In 2014 as runner up Juventus got more than Real Madrid did in 2017 for winning the damn thing !

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/competitions/General/02/57/82/51/2578251_DOWNLOAD.pdf 2017/18
https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/competitions/General/02/29/45/25/2294525_DOWNLOAD.pdf2014/15
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Sat May 18, 2019 11:56 pm

theHotHead wrote:You say you are referencing this year's earnings, thats rubbish because you have no idea what the Market Pool for the clubs will be because you don't have the foggiest clue what each country has negotiated with UEFA. Hence why I used the latest published full results from UEFA that shows the breakdown for each club, in each round and their Market Pool payment, to get an exact figure, not some estimate or made up figure you worked out !!! the latest available figures from UEFA are 2017/18 season.


This epitomizes why you discussions with you can be such complete waste of time ..... CL is not as good as EL - Ozil is not the player he was - Emery is doing OK ..... constantly arguing against the rest of the fan-base? why?

Have an opinion, state that opinion, stick with that opinion ... all good, but don't constantly deny the facts to do it, that just looks dumb.

The point here is "North London Powershift" .... what has been explained to you, and backed up with the numbers, is that being in the CL Final is worth in prize money some >80m more than being in the EL Final, then add all the marketing and sponsorship upside .. this is a power-shift for all the top six sides ... FFP has started to limit the financial doping (bit late) so now it's even more important to generate increased income

Of course we can estimate this year's Market Pool it's not rocket science ... I've linked that information below ... also included the EL numbers so you can understand the massive difference .... please read it so you can keep up

WTF are you on about? are you saying that finishing fifth or sixth makes no difference to finishing top four? are you just typing anything to try and validate a ridiculous position? are you in fact denying that CL football makes a huge difference? what indeed is your point?

One last attempt to get through your incredibly thick skull .... not my take it's the Swiss Rambler's take before the Semi-Finals ... note the 54% increase year on year in CL money, a fact which makes your two year old figures completely redundant ...

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1121301074655236102

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Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Sun May 19, 2019 1:04 am

Much better explained than I just did .... Why missing out on CL is no longer an option ....

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/how-much-lpool-man-utd-city-spurs-have-earned-from-the-cl-this-term/
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Re: North London Powershift

Postby theHotHead » Sun May 19, 2019 2:08 pm

I literally cannot be bothered to waste my time responding to this EK, even though I could destroy your post on so many levels. What I will say is, considering Arsenal don't get past the round of the last 16 in the CL there is no point talking about earnings for winning the thing because Arsenal won't, so being realistic the CL money we miss out on is the round 16 money - as I stated in a previous post. And as I stated that money hasn't changed much over the past 5 years, as I also showed.
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