Checkatrade Trophy

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Checkatrade Trophy

Postby starmandb » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Leading 1-0 thanks to a goal from smith-Rowe
One two with John - jules
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby starmandb » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:30 pm

2-0 Nketiah
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby starmandb » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:36 pm

3-0 willock
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Zenith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:30 am

Reckon Nketiah (19), Willock (20) and Smith-Rowe (18) have come to a stage where they've outgrown the level of academy football and could use a loan spell in order to develop further.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby SuperJackyWilshere » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:33 am

Oh damn!

Wasn’t aware we entered this.

Quality little to tournament for our youth players
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby UFGN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:52 am

I expect we'll see a lot of these lads in the Brentford match
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Phil71 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:02 am

SuperJackyWilshere wrote:Oh damn!

Wasn’t aware we entered this.

Quality little to tournament for our youth players


Yeah absolutely.

Gives them a good taste of men's football.

Still not enough though IMO. Players are starting first team football much later than they were years back, and we find ourselves in a situation where 19 and 20 year olds have played comparatively few games against men. They earn so much money that loaning them out is too expensive for the loaning club. If a player is on £20k a week, and we ask for his wages to be paid, and include insurance & loan fees, that can total near on £2m for a one year loan that a club one or two divisions down to pay. Out of their range.

Something has to be done to give these players more proper playing time. Entering competitions like this is a start, but i think we might have to consider the continental option of having a B team permanently competing in a lower league.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby UFGN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:09 am

Phil71 wrote:
SuperJackyWilshere wrote:Oh damn!

Wasn’t aware we entered this.

Quality little to tournament for our youth players


Yeah absolutely.

Gives them a good taste of men's football.

Still not enough though IMO. Players are starting first team football much later than they were years back, and we find ourselves in a situation where 19 and 20 year olds have played comparatively few games against men. They earn so much money that loaning them out is too expensive for the loaning club. If a player is on £20k a week, and we ask for his wages to be paid, and include insurance & loan fees, that can total near on £2m for a one year loan that a club one or two divisions down to pay. Out of their range.

Something has to be done to give these players more proper playing time. Entering competitions like this is a start, but i think we might have to consider the continental option of having a B team permanently competing in a lower league.


B teams are terrible because each one displaces an entire football club from the football league. It's bad for the sport and for the integrity of league competitions

In the bigger picture it also reduces the chances of youngsters to make it in football. For each club that loses its league status to an Arsenal B or a Chelsea B, thats a whole fiotball club that cant afford to maintain an academy because they're now fighting for survival.

Loaning players more extensively is the only solution.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Phil71 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:45 pm

UFGN wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
SuperJackyWilshere wrote:Oh damn!

Wasn’t aware we entered this.

Quality little to tournament for our youth players


Yeah absolutely.

Gives them a good taste of men's football.

Still not enough though IMO. Players are starting first team football much later than they were years back, and we find ourselves in a situation where 19 and 20 year olds have played comparatively few games against men. They earn so much money that loaning them out is too expensive for the loaning club. If a player is on £20k a week, and we ask for his wages to be paid, and include insurance & loan fees, that can total near on £2m for a one year loan that a club one or two divisions down to pay. Out of their range.

Something has to be done to give these players more proper playing time. Entering competitions like this is a start, but i think we might have to consider the continental option of having a B team permanently competing in a lower league.


B teams are terrible because each one displaces an entire football club from the football league. It's bad for the sport and for the integrity of league competitions

In the bigger picture it also reduces the chances of youngsters to make it in football. For each club that loses its league status to an Arsenal B or a Chelsea B, thats a whole fiotball club that cant afford to maintain an academy because they're now fighting for survival.

Loaning players more extensively is the only solution.


Yeah valid points about clubs missing out.

If a loan works out to be good one then it's fine. But half the time the players don't even get much playing time.

I definitely think the whole idea of more men's football for younger players (let's say 18+) needs to be looked at. You can get a much better idea of how a player is progressing if he's playing proper football at a reasonably decent level, and on a regular basis.

It's very rare nowadays for young players to get regular games at PL level. Go back to the 80s and you had Adams, Merson, Thomas, Rocastle and Quinn, all getting picked regularly at 18 or 19 years old. Within a couple of years they were winning the league.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Ach » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:52 pm

Do what the Spanish do
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Phil71 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Ach wrote:Do what the Spanish do


You mean the B team idea? I've suggested that. It's used in lots of other leagues around Europe.

I must admit though, that in hindsight I do agree with UFGN about it devaluing the leagues. For instance, Arsenal or whomever might choose to put out a team with five novices to see how they perform. So if two teams are competing for promotion, or against relegation, and we choose to mess around with our team when we play one of them, it loses all integrity.

Not sure what the solution is.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Ach » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:15 pm

Phil71 wrote:
Ach wrote:Do what the Spanish do


You mean the B team idea? I've suggested that. It's used in lots of other leagues around Europe.

I must admit though, that in hindsight I do agree with UFGN about it devaluing the leagues. For instance, Arsenal or whomever might choose to put out a team with five novices to see how they perform. So if two teams are competing for promotion, or against relegation, and we choose to mess around with our team when we play one of them, it loses all integrity.

Not sure what the solution is.

Arsenal comes first

I for one don't care about lower league football. One match v our B team wont settle promotion or relegation for any club. They have 45 other matches
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby UFGN » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:20 pm

Ach wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Ach wrote:Do what the Spanish do


You mean the B team idea? I've suggested that. It's used in lots of other leagues around Europe.

I must admit though, that in hindsight I do agree with UFGN about it devaluing the leagues. For instance, Arsenal or whomever might choose to put out a team with five novices to see how they perform. So if two teams are competing for promotion, or against relegation, and we choose to mess around with our team when we play one of them, it loses all integrity.

Not sure what the solution is.

Arsenal comes first

I for one don't care about lower league football. One match v our B team wont settle promotion or relegation for any club. They have 45 other matches


At least six teams would want B Teams

That's six football clubs relegated out of the football league and staring administration in the face and the football league destroyed.

Just so a few players from a few rich clubs can gain a theoretical advantage that loaning could do almost as well

No.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Zenith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:30 pm

Phil71 wrote:They earn so much money that loaning them out is too expensive for the loaning club. If a player is on £20k a week, and we ask for his wages to be paid, and include insurance & loan fees, that can total near on £2m for a one year loan that a club one or two divisions down to pay. Out of their range.

Chuba was on a £15k/week salary at Arsenal when he joined STVV on loan.

For reference the average STVV player earns roughly 10 times less than that.

It's a non-issue if parent club is willing to continue to cover the wages of the player.

Plus the parent club often receives a loan fee from the club who are interested in the player's services.
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Re: Checkatrade trophy Arsenal v Coventry

Postby Phil71 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:34 pm

Zenith wrote:
Phil71 wrote:They earn so much money that loaning them out is too expensive for the loaning club. If a player is on £20k a week, and we ask for his wages to be paid, and include insurance & loan fees, that can total near on £2m for a one year loan that a club one or two divisions down to pay. Out of their range.

Chuba was on a £15k/week salary at Arsenal when he joined STVV on loan.

For reference the average STVV player earns roughly 10 times less than that.

It's a non-issue if parent club is willing to continue to cover the wages of the player.

Plus the parent club often receives a loan fee from the club who are interested in the player's services.


That’s the trouble though, they often look to make money out of loaning out their players.

Maybe I didn’t explain it clearly looking at it. I meant the club taking the player on loan couldn’t afford it.
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