The Kroenke Problem

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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm

Wenger needed to go for his own failing you won’t get any complaints from me there. My issue is with the ownership and if they’re doing what’s needed to provide what’s best for Arsenal. It doesn’t have to be an extra 100 mil to buy players but a similar gesture wouldn’t go unnoticed. A simple change to outdated policies would have been nice. Prioritizing the club over other assets would be appreciated. A modicum of ambition would be welcomed. I do not get the feeling with the ownership that they’re serious about the club achieving the highest honors.


@Crimson

That’s simply not true. How long was Wiltord our record signing for under the old regime? Under Wenger we’d spend peanuts on players well into the Emirates years. Since Kroenke has taken over we’ve broken our transfer record on three occasions in recent years with Ozil, Lacazette and Auba. Also, we’ve invested in better rated players and not just unpolished gems from the French league.

We moved a away from the youth policy and we went from having an experienced team to having plenty of experience and title winner to point now where we have an aging team passed their peak because they missed their window under Wenger.

We have broken our wage barrier and moved away from that ‘socialist wage structure’ Wenger would champion which would often be the cause of losing star players because we’re overpaying overhyped kids. It’s still far from perfect but at least we’ve shown we’re willing to reward key players and it will take some years to correct the inflated wage bill.

We invested in Stat DNA and tried to bring in players using a data driven system instead of depending on Wenger’s outdated knowledge of the game.

We employed new fitness gurus and invested in fitness tech to help curb the constant injury problems we suffered under Wenger. We weren’t measuring fatigue levels in training before but when you heard Wenger talk of players being in the ‘red zone’ that’s because of the new fitness vests we invested in for training which could measure fatigue levels.

We have just fired Wenger, hired a new coach and staff to support a new system where the manager doesn’t have absolute authority over everything. We now have Raul, Vinai, Edu is about to join, we’ve brought back ex Arsenal players to coach the youth. A major critisim I had with the club and Wenger was how former players weren’t given coaching roles or allowed a major say in our future. We only ever had that glorified cone collector, Bould, who looks to be on his way out of the club.

There has been so many changes around the club and I just hope it continues.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:39 pm

Exactly that. How long did we beg to buy some adults instead of kids!! Pleaded with the club we did, sick of the kids experiment. Unfortunately we need some toughened players that have fight in them, we are still soft as shite.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Wenger needed to go for his own failing you won’t get any complaints from me there. My issue is with the ownership and if they’re doing what’s needed to provide what’s best for Arsenal. It doesn’t have to be an extra 100 mil to buy players but a similar gesture wouldn’t go unnoticed. A simple change to outdated policies would have been nice. Prioritizing the club over other assets would be appreciated. A modicum of ambition would be welcomed. I do not get the feeling with the ownership that they’re serious about the club achieving the highest honors.


@Crimson

That’s simply not true. How long was Wiltord our record signing for under the old regime? Under Wenger we’d spend peanuts on players well into the Emirates years. Since Kroenke has taken over we’ve broken our transfer record on three occasions in recent years with Ozil, Lacazette and Auba. Also, we’ve invested in better rated players and not just unpolished gems from the French league.

We moved a away from the youth policy and we went from having an experienced team to having plenty of experience and title winner to point now where we have an aging team passed their peak because they missed their window under Wenger.

We have broken our wage barrier and moved away from that ‘socialist wage structure’ Wenger would champion which would often be the cause of losing star players because we’re overpaying overhyped kids. It’s still far from perfect but at least we’ve shown we’re willing to reward key players and it will take some years to correct the inflated wage bill.

We invested in Stat DNA and tried to bring in players using a data driven system instead of depending on Wenger’s outdated knowledge of the game.

We employed new fitness gurus and invested in fitness tech to help curb the constant injury problems we suffered under Wenger. We weren’t measuring fatigue levels in training before but when you heard Wenger talk of players being in the ‘red zone’ that’s because of the new fitness vests we invested in for training which could measure fatigue levels.

We have just fired Wenger, hired a new coach and staff to support a new system where the manager doesn’t have absolute authority over everything. We now have Raul, Vinai, Edu is about to join, we’ve brought back ex Arsenal players to coach the youth. A major critisim I had with the club and Wenger was how former players weren’t given coaching roles or allowed a major say in our future. We only ever had that glorified cone collector, Bould, who looks to be on his way out of the club.

There has been so many changes around the club and I just hope it continues.


Yes there’s been change just like there’s been change before Kroenke came along. What’s more important is what drives that change. Are we making changes just to compete in the CL and PL or are we making changes to actually win those competitions? The conduct from those running the club suggests to me that they are fine with settling for the former.

If what you want to hear is that I’m grateful for Kroenke then yes I’m grateful for all that he’s done that I’m aware and not aware of. This doesn’t mean I should be satisfied. We haven’t won what I want us to win yet. We’ve missed out on having a better manager due to indecisiveness and ignorance at executive and ownership level. And I don’t get the sense that there’s any urgency to resolve the monumental collapse shown by Emery at the end of last season.

I honestly don’t understand why people are bending over backwards to support a man who probably has the club listed near the bottom of his portfolio of priorities. That alone should get your blood boiling tbh
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Bellerin Saliba Sokratis Tierney
(Niles/Osei-Tutu) (Mustafi/Dinos) (Holding/Medley) (Kolasinac/Bola)
Xhaka(c)
(Luiz?/Chambers)
Guendouzi --- Ceballos
(Torreira/Elneny) --- (Ozil/Willock)
Pepe -------------------- Auba
(ESR/Mkhi) -------------------- (Nelson/Saka)
Lacazette
(Martinelli/Nketiah)


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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:26 pm

Yes there’s been change just like there’s been change before Kroenke came along. What’s more important is what drives that change. Are we making changes just to compete in the CL and PL or are we making changes to actually win those competitions? The conduct from those running the club suggests to me that they are fine with settling for the former.


What changes were made before Kroenke arrived under Wenger that didn't revolve around our swanky new stadium? All policies in place, such as the youth policy, wage structure and our top 4 goals were all for maintaining the stadium and essentially lining the pockets of our former owners. What I see today is an effort to at least correct that problem because we didn't have to make all these internal changes. We could have have just changed managers and said have a blast. Left him with the same structure Wenger had held on to for years.

If what you want to hear is that I’m grateful for Kroenke then yes I’m grateful for all that he’s done that I’m aware and not aware of. This doesn’t mean I should be satisfied. We haven’t won what I want us to win yet. We’ve missed out on having a better manager due to indecisiveness and ignorance at executive and ownership level. And I don’t get the sense that there’s any urgency to resolve the monumental collapse shown by Emery at the end of last season.


Facts and solid argument that can be backed up. You don't have to be grateful or praise the owner for anything. I have more of problem with inaccurate information and vague arguments which ignore specifics.

I honestly don’t understand why people are bending over backwards to support a man who probably has the club listed near the bottom of his portfolio of priorities. That alone should get your blood boiling tbh


American sport is different to football over here. They have a draft system and salary cap. Also, the Rams recently went to the Superbowl after a stadium move and after KSE fired a longstanding stale manager. Similar to the Wenger scenario. Also, the Nuggets went a bit further in the playoffs this year.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:12 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Yes there’s been change just like there’s been change before Kroenke came along. What’s more important is what drives that change. Are we making changes just to compete in the CL and PL or are we making changes to actually win those competitions? The conduct from those running the club suggests to me that they are fine with settling for the former.


What changes were made before Kroenke arrived under Wenger that didn't revolve around our swanky new stadium? All policies in place, such as the youth policy, wage structure and our top 4 goals were all for maintaining the stadium and essentially lining the pockets of our former owners. What I see today is an effort to at least correct that problem because we didn't have to make all these internal changes. We could have have just changed managers and said have a blast. Left him with the same structure Wenger had held on to for years.


You’re missing the point of what I’ve said and why should we ignore the decision to build the new stadium. I said there’s been change before Kroenke and there will always be change. Everything you’ve mentioned are in fact changes regardless of whether they were the right ones or not. Bringing in Kroenke was change. Changing kit sponsors and manufacturers is change. Changing the club captain is change. You can make inessential changes and still claim what everyone wants to hear but only those who know what they want can determine whether those changes will actually align with their personal objectives.

Power n Glory wrote:
If what you want to hear is that I’m grateful for Kroenke then yes I’m grateful for all that he’s done that I’m aware and not aware of. This doesn’t mean I should be satisfied. We haven’t won what I want us to win yet. We’ve missed out on having a better manager due to indecisiveness and ignorance at executive and ownership level. And I don’t get the sense that there’s any urgency to resolve the monumental collapse shown by Emery at the end of last season.


Facts and solid argument that can be backed up. You don't have to be grateful or praise the owner for anything. I have more of problem with inaccurate information and vague arguments which ignore specifics.


No one is perfect. You yourself say things that are inaccurate, one of which I just corrected a few posts back.

Power n Glory wrote:
I honestly don’t understand why people are bending over backwards to support a man who probably has the club listed near the bottom of his portfolio of priorities. That alone should get your blood boiling tbh


American sport is different to football over here. They have a draft system and salary cap. Also, the Rams recently went to the Superbowl after a stadium move and after KSE fired a longstanding stale manager. Similar to the Wenger scenario. Also, the Nuggets went a bit further in the playoffs this year.


I want Kroenke to focus on Arsenal and Arsenal only, or at the very least have us as his first priority. It shouldn’t be wrong for me to be selfish wrt the success of this club.
Leno
(Martinez/Macey)
Bellerin Saliba Sokratis Tierney
(Niles/Osei-Tutu) (Mustafi/Dinos) (Holding/Medley) (Kolasinac/Bola)
Xhaka(c)
(Luiz?/Chambers)
Guendouzi --- Ceballos
(Torreira/Elneny) --- (Ozil/Willock)
Pepe -------------------- Auba
(ESR/Mkhi) -------------------- (Nelson/Saka)
Lacazette
(Martinelli/Nketiah)


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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:42 pm

Crimson, a change in sponsorship, captains and everything you mentioned are the norm for any club or sporting organisation. Structural changes and revamping a managerial system isn't the norm for any club. Deciding to appointing a Director of Football and Technical Director to work alongside the manager doesn't happen often for other clubs if such a structure wasn't already in place. Breaking wage structures in place for years and transfer policies isn't something that happens all the time just to keep up with the appearance of change. This is turn into a poor argument now and not much thought is going into what's said.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:55 pm

I don't know anyone that has actually said the like Kroenke or that Kroenke is doing a good job. I want him out of the club, but I cannot say he is the reason we are slipping behind our rivals, that's squarely on Wenger.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:57 pm

Power n Glory wrote:Crimson, a change in sponsorship, captains and everything you mentioned are the norm for any club or sporting organisation. Structural changes and revamping a managerial system isn't the norm for any club. Deciding to appointing a Director of Football and Technical Director to work alongside the manager doesn't happen often for other clubs if such a structure wasn't already in place. Breaking wage structures in place for years and transfer policies isn't something that happens all the time just to keep up with the appearance of change. This is turn into a poor argument now and not much thought is going into what's said.


You’re nitpicking at the examples I provided. Arsenal have been in existence long before Kroenke and long before Wenger. There are countless other examples that meet your criteria besides the ones I’ve mentioned, some of which can be found with a quick Google search. Others of which are probably confidential. Regardless though, all this is still diverting away from the main point of the original post.
Leno
(Martinez/Macey)
Bellerin Saliba Sokratis Tierney
(Niles/Osei-Tutu) (Mustafi/Dinos) (Holding/Medley) (Kolasinac/Bola)
Xhaka(c)
(Luiz?/Chambers)
Guendouzi --- Ceballos
(Torreira/Elneny) --- (Ozil/Willock)
Pepe -------------------- Auba
(ESR/Mkhi) -------------------- (Nelson/Saka)
Lacazette
(Martinelli/Nketiah)


Last Updated: 9/19/19
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:42 pm

CrimsonGunner11 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Crimson, a change in sponsorship, captains and everything you mentioned are the norm for any club or sporting organisation. Structural changes and revamping a managerial system isn't the norm for any club. Deciding to appointing a Director of Football and Technical Director to work alongside the manager doesn't happen often for other clubs if such a structure wasn't already in place. Breaking wage structures in place for years and transfer policies isn't something that happens all the time just to keep up with the appearance of change. This is turn into a poor argument now and not much thought is going into what's said.


You’re nitpicking at the examples I provided. Arsenal have been in existence long before Kroenke and long before Wenger. There are countless other examples that meet your criteria besides the ones I’ve mentioned, some of which can be found with a quick Google search. Others of which are probably confidential. Regardless though, all this is still diverting away from the main point of the original post.


Name them if it's a quick Google search. Again, it sounds like there hasn't been much thought or research to what your saying.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby UFGN » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:51 pm

The club had remarkably little change for decades before Kroenke.

Basically you had the Hill-Woods, Nina Bracewell-Smith, Danny Fitzman, a small number of other faces and then Ken Friar in various senior roles

Cant think of many clubs where not only the fans, but even rival fans, could name most of the board. Our directors were so well known that they were almost household names
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Royal Gooner » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:20 pm

UFGN wrote:The club had remarkably little change for decades before Kroenke.

Basically you had the Hill-Woods, Nina Bracewell-Smith, Danny Fitzman, a small number of other faces and then Ken Friar in various senior roles

Cant think of many clubs where not only the fans, but even rival fans, could name most of the board. Our directors were so well known that they were almost household names


We were the House of Lords of Football where the board and directors positions were all handed down from the original founders and investors from father to son until Fitzman and Dein came in and joined the group. It is a real shame we have lost the benevolent hereditary board that loved and cared for the club.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Zedie » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:57 pm

Royal Gooner wrote:
UFGN wrote:The club had remarkably little change for decades before Kroenke.

Basically you had the Hill-Woods, Nina Bracewell-Smith, Danny Fitzman, a small number of other faces and then Ken Friar in various senior roles

Cant think of many clubs where not only the fans, but even rival fans, could name most of the board. Our directors were so well known that they were almost household names


We were the House of Lords of Football where the board and directors positions were all handed down from the original founders and investors from father to son until Fitzman and Dein came in and joined the group. It is a real shame we have lost the benevolent hereditary board that loved and cared for the club.


They cashed out to suit their interests to a man that sees us as little more than a trinket to add to his collection.

They thought more of the payoff than they thought of us.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:55 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
CrimsonGunner11 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Crimson, a change in sponsorship, captains and everything you mentioned are the norm for any club or sporting organisation. Structural changes and revamping a managerial system isn't the norm for any club. Deciding to appointing a Director of Football and Technical Director to work alongside the manager doesn't happen often for other clubs if such a structure wasn't already in place. Breaking wage structures in place for years and transfer policies isn't something that happens all the time just to keep up with the appearance of change. This is turn into a poor argument now and not much thought is going into what's said.


You’re nitpicking at the examples I provided. Arsenal have been in existence long before Kroenke and long before Wenger. There are countless other examples that meet your criteria besides the ones I’ve mentioned, some of which can be found with a quick Google search. Others of which are probably confidential. Regardless though, all this is still diverting away from the main point of the original post.


Name them if it's a quick Google search. Again, it sounds like there hasn't been much thought or research to what your saying.



Completion of the Emirates in 2006 is one (I don’t know why you want to ignore this)

A few of the other more notable ones with a quick Google search:

Revolutionary training regimes and diet changes in 1996
The opening of the training center in 1999
Using statistical data when purchasing players around 2002 (considered one of the first proper applications of it to English football)
Usmanov acquiring 14.58% stake in Arsenal in 2007
Granada Ventures selling its 9.9% stake in Arsenal to Kroenke's KSE UK inc in 2007
David Dein leaving in 2007
Leno
(Martinez/Macey)
Bellerin Saliba Sokratis Tierney
(Niles/Osei-Tutu) (Mustafi/Dinos) (Holding/Medley) (Kolasinac/Bola)
Xhaka(c)
(Luiz?/Chambers)
Guendouzi --- Ceballos
(Torreira/Elneny) --- (Ozil/Willock)
Pepe -------------------- Auba
(ESR/Mkhi) -------------------- (Nelson/Saka)
Lacazette
(Martinelli/Nketiah)


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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:27 pm

@Crimson you missed the part where I mentioned the below.
What changes were made before Kroenke arrived under Wenger that didn't revolve around our swanky new stadium? All policies in place, such as the youth policy, wage structure and our top 4 goals were all for maintaining the stadium and essentially lining the pockets of our former owners
.

The majority of what you've listed comes from changes made to help support the financing of the stadium and everything before the stadium such as us buying the training ground from the money made from selling Anelka, Petit and Overmars came from Wenger's vision which revolutionised the club. Same goes for the diet changes, scouting...all Wenger and his vision. The manager being the driving force. If you go on the Emirates tours they'll even tell you Wenger helped design the Emirates home and away changing rooms!

That drives at another point I have on a manager being able to be a driving force for a club that's gone stale but that's another debate.

Selling shares, Dein leaving, Usmanov...all moves brought about by us moving to the Emirates.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:01 pm

Power n Glory wrote:@Crimson you missed the part where I mentioned the below.
What changes were made before Kroenke arrived under Wenger that didn't revolve around our swanky new stadium? All policies in place, such as the youth policy, wage structure and our top 4 goals were all for maintaining the stadium and essentially lining the pockets of our former owners
.

The majority of what you've listed comes from changes made to help support the financing of the stadium and everything before the stadium such as us buying the training ground from the money made from selling Anelka, Petit and Overmars came from Wenger's vision which revolutionised the club. Same goes for the diet changes, scouting...all Wenger and his vision. The manager being the driving force. If you go on the Emirates tours they'll even tell you Wenger helped design the Emirates home and away changing rooms!

That drives at another point I have on a manager being able to be a driving force for a club that's gone stale but that's another debate.

Selling shares, Dein leaving, Usmanov...all moves brought about by us moving to the Emirates.


Still though, some of those points needed to be supported by the board even though they were Wenger’s vision.

In any case, the changes you listed originally came about to prepare for life after Wenger. This means that whatever changes were made to prepare for life with Wenger (changes that I’m sure were made) is the answer you’re looking for.
Leno
(Martinez/Macey)
Bellerin Saliba Sokratis Tierney
(Niles/Osei-Tutu) (Mustafi/Dinos) (Holding/Medley) (Kolasinac/Bola)
Xhaka(c)
(Luiz?/Chambers)
Guendouzi --- Ceballos
(Torreira/Elneny) --- (Ozil/Willock)
Pepe -------------------- Auba
(ESR/Mkhi) -------------------- (Nelson/Saka)
Lacazette
(Martinelli/Nketiah)


Last Updated: 9/19/19
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