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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:24 pm

When Partey comes into the side you'll see what I mean about about an evolved role. The DM role has moved away from Makalele types hence why Wenger is talking rubbish about technical ability and decision making. Also, Wenger is the one that said we need two DM's to get the best of Ozil. I don't agree with that and don't think we should be trying to accommodate Ozil at all at this point.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby elkanofan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:35 pm

Power n Glory wrote:No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....




Technique has got worse over the years.

Now it's become all too generic. Your goalkeeper and center back have the technique of an average midfielder, problem is we do not see any magic specialists in technique and flair like Riquelme, Ronaldinho etc.. emerge at all.

Attacking Midfielders are all becoming like Aaron Ramsey, very good to solid technique, excellent engine, utilized well in the hole. Kai Havertz is more a goalscoring Ballack than Littebarski. Hes a big talent but I'm honest in that Ozil excited me a lot more at 20 than Havertz has.

As for attackers and strikers, all the best technique you see in the next gen are from these free role players who are all lesser version clones of Messi and CR7.

This has been the effect of making tackling so hard due to much stricter rules. The game flows much more now compared to before 2007. You can't do what Gary Neville did to Jose Reyes in THAT game that game 49 and out, because of this and over time a preference to high pressing with athlete has become the norm, added the lack of any creativity with the younger generation due to the over reliance of social media and instant gratification over patience and allowing our spiritual intuition to manifest.

I look at van Dijk who is seen as the worlds best defender as a sorry state for the game. He is a top player, strong, a leader, quick, agile for his size, excellent at player to player battles and possesses excellent technique. But his reading of the game has always been poor and still is now, that 7-2 nonsense would never happen with a guy like Adams vs a bang average side like Villa. This has all been put in to help agents wrap their prized assets in cotton wool as much as possible and to further sanitize the game of its tribal roots.

This change towards physicality hasn't benefited football at all. Its got worse as a spectacle and in overall quality. Wenger has basically said this with his recent comments on Ozil. While we all know this is no excuse to Ozil's shit the last 2-3 years for us and why he couldn't adapt his game, I do miss players like him at his best because right now I haven't seen any attacking mid youngster who excites me like Ozil did in his post Diego years at Werder Bremen.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby immsun » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:57 pm

Hes rubbing it now on twitter

Making club look.like a fool.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:02 pm

@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby ag6789 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm

I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby elkanofan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Power n Glory wrote:@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
Hoof and hope Stoke under Pulis are a good point to what ae just don't see in the game anymore. The eradication of this type of team and its players hasn't yielded a fountain of creativity to take football forward.

Instead a generation of almost clone like players with fewer talents to marvel at compared to what we saw even 10 years ago.

ag6789 wrote:I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.


The problem is its already been over 10-15 years since that generation and the current 20-26 year olds generation has completely failed to reproduce anything like that generation. The failure and downfall has already happened, we are experiencing it right now and its only going to get worse.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:10 pm

elkanofan wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
Hoof and hope Stoke under Pulis are a good point to what ae just don't see in the game anymore. The eradication of this type of team and its players hasn't yielded a fountain of creativity to take football forward.

Instead a generation of almost clone like players with fewer talents to marvel at compared to what we saw even 10 years ago.

ag6789 wrote:I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.


The problem is its already been over 10-15 years since that generation and the current 20-26 year olds generation has completely failed to reproduce anything like that generation. The failure and downfall has already happened, we are experiencing it right now and its only going to get worse.

You know what ... I agree with this. Where are the standout players ? The players with technical ability ? I don't rate a lot of these players,
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:16 pm

strikers as a whole are in a weird transition

the only truly elite forwards are all pretty much in their 30's

but the up and coming ones are not necessarily known for outrageous tech (though still obvs at a very, very good level) but for their speed of thought combined with their ability to use this intelligence whilst playing at top speed in general

haaland is the standout example of this for me. his football IQ in terms of strikers instinct is off the chain, put that in a 6'4" fast as f**k frame and unbelievable finishing and he is what football is going to look like over the next couple of years. he's still a very good player but to be a constant goalscorer in a top 5 league you're footballing intelligence as a striker is as important as its been in a while. mbappe's also the same in terms of speed of thought & speed of play but he's becoming a much more rounded footballer as a creator too
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:25 pm

elkanofan wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
Hoof and hope Stoke under Pulis are a good point to what ae just don't see in the game anymore. The eradication of this type of team and its players hasn't yielded a fountain of creativity to take football forward.

Instead a generation of almost clone like players with fewer talents to marvel at compared to what we saw even 10 years ago.

ag6789 wrote:I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.


The problem is its already been over 10-15 years since that generation and the current 20-26 year olds generation has completely failed to reproduce anything like that generation. The failure and downfall has already happened, we are experiencing it right now and its only going to get worse.


I'd put some of that responsiblity on managers like Wenger for the lack of creativity and clone like players we see today. Years over emphasis on possession football to extent where we had CM's playing in Wenger positions instead of proper wingers that could take their man on. Even the fans on this forum have been conditioned to be over critical of players that lose the ball when attempting to take their man on. See Sanchez, see Pepe.

I'm sure in years to come dribbling will be encouraged again to try and break through lines. Also, I think the European style of play and structure has dominated for a while now. I think Brazlian defensive players are more popular than attackers these days.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby ag6789 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:16 pm

As long as you've good technique and ability to keep the ball, you'll have advantages over the other, like Sanchez and Aguero, Messi etc. These are all small people but they get the better of tall and stronger guys w/ their technique and ball control. Been that way forever in football. I'm sure we'll continue to see skilled players showing up and dominate the game again and again. Just a matter of time.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Angelito » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:04 am

You signed Mesut Ozil for a then club record fee of £42.4m - what do you make of his career currently?

I feel it is a waste for him.

Firstly because he's in the years where a player of his talent can produce the most. And it's a waste for the club as well because he's a super talent, a creative talent that in the final third can create that killer pass.

The way football is going at the moment it's quick counter-pressing, quick transitions and everybody plays the same. It's kicked out players like Ozil. Although let's not forget who this guy is. A world champion who has played at Real Madrid.

He's been the record player of assists, so you have to find a way to get him involved again.

- AW


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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:23 am

ag6789 wrote:As long as you've good technique and ability to keep the ball, you'll have advantages over the other, like Sanchez and Aguero, Messi etc. These are all small people but they get the better of tall and stronger guys w/ their technique and ball control. Been that way forever in football. I'm sure we'll continue to see skilled players showing up and dominate the game again and again. Just a matter of time.

I hear you but not really. Small technical players had a hard time in the era of your Glenn Hoddles and before that, footballers tended to be bigger. If you were small you struggled to get trials, you had to be a standout player technically. which is why I think, from that era, 70s, 80s and even 90s, the perception was small players were the skillful players when in reality its just the cream of the crop of the small players only got through.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:13 pm

theHotHead wrote:
ag6789 wrote:As long as you've good technique and ability to keep the ball, you'll have advantages over the other, like Sanchez and Aguero, Messi etc. These are all small people but they get the better of tall and stronger guys w/ their technique and ball control. Been that way forever in football. I'm sure we'll continue to see skilled players showing up and dominate the game again and again. Just a matter of time.

I hear you but not really. Small technical players had a hard time in the era of your Glenn Hoddles and before that, footballers tended to be bigger. If you were small you struggled to get trials, you had to be a standout player technically. which is why I think, from that era, 70s, 80s and even 90s, the perception was small players were the skillful players when in reality its just the cream of the crop of the small players only got through.


To an extent yes. I got slot in Millwall's youth team set up when I was 14 because I was tall and had some speed yet had no technical ability compared to most. They put me at the 4 and as a 9 as they did a couple other guys who were also taller than most. In the early 70s as you say they were starting to think about bigger players because it was long ball and winning headers in the center of the pitch made sense...and anyone six foot was big then. But in the end it was ability and a football brain that won out in the end. As such I failed! The thing about Arsenal in say 1971 was that we had Radford at the 9 who was not huge, Ray Kennedy at the 10 who was about 5' 10 as recall and not exactly a speedy man but could function as a 9 or even an 8 until we bought Alan Ball who was a small proper 8. We used to all go down to parking area at Highbury after matched to get out programs signed by the players as they left and it was a revelation to me that very few of them were larger than I was. Even Mclintock was a under 6 foot. Footballers that have a low center of gravity, speed and power do have advantages over taller guys and always will have save in the air. That is obviously why historically the 9 is big hold up man and the 10 is a technical player in the old 4-4-2 and the CBs are big men while the fullbacks and wingers were always the little speed guys.

We also need to consider that in the 70's through the early 90's there were no real "academies" nor any proper development of youth players. Clubs had extensive networks of free lance scouts and rather informal youth set ups that basically were in and out operations with only the most naturally gifted players promoted to being apprentices and were expected even required to leave school at 16. Many a very talented player ended up as brick layers rather than footballers because they were never really trained or educated in the game at club level. A friend who did make it to the reserve team squad at Millwall just got mauled as it was his first real football education and older fringe players would simply run rings around the kids. So it was not so much about size in the end at all.
What would Nasri do? Never mind.
What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:56 am

https://talksport.com/football/772514/a ... -transfer/

Arsenal paid Mesut Ozil a loyalty bonus last month… earning the outcast midfielder a reported £8million!

The contractual payment was part of the £350,000-a-week, three-year deal he signed with the Gunners in January 2018.


Unbelievable. What a mess.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:00 am

Power n Glory wrote:https://talksport.com/football/772514/arsenal-mesut-ozil-loyalty-bonus-transfer/

Arsenal paid Mesut Ozil a loyalty bonus last month… earning the outcast midfielder a reported £8million!

The contractual payment was part of the £350,000-a-week, three-year deal he signed with the Gunners in January 2018.


Unbelievable. What a mess.


Total mess.
He should be playing instead of being sent on holiday - a very well paid holiday.
It's clear Ozil wants to play, so this is all on the club.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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