Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby KG3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:59 am

swipe right wrote:
aniym wrote:If you stop by the Utd forums, you'll see that the posters rarely compare the records of LVG to Mourinho, or Mou to OGS these days. They would do that all the time a couple of years ago.

They're on the 4th manager post-SAF so enough time has passed for them to understand that no manager comes in with a slate wiped clean of problems. They're responsible for what happens on match day, but they still have to deal with the realities of the situation as they found it.

Emery had to deal with:
-- a non-existent defense, besides getting Sokratis to replace injured Kos
-- Ozil's drop in form, and no creative replacement with Cazorla and Wilsh being released. Mhikytaryan not good enough at PL level.
-- No wide attacker. Welbeck did OK the first few games in that role, then with the inevitable injury, Iwobi took his place.

The next season:
-- Ramsey, Iwobi, Monreal, Mhikytaryan, Koscielny all gone -- nearly 50% of our starting XI
-- LB that signed injured, and rarely played by the time he got the sack
-- Trying to fit Pepe into the team when he likely had a clearer plan for Zaha

Arteta has to deal with:
-- Dreadful, no-confidence football from Xhaka, Luiz and Mustafi
-- No creative CM
-- Massive drop in form for Lacazette (his G+A were crucial to our 18/19 season)

The next guy will face the problems created during Arteta's tenure:
-- What to do with Guendouzi when he returns
-- Possible Auba performance downturn
-- Uncertainty around contracts for Pepe, Saliba, Martinelli and AMN (players that Arteta doesn't seem to rate)

Emery chose to release all those creative players we had and fill them with dross like Guendozi, Torreira, Suarez, Lichtensteiner etc. I have no sympathy for him.


Don’t think you blame emery for Cazorla, Wilshere departures he was never in charge of contract negotiations as seen with the Ramsey saga.

When it comes to signings he didn’t have a big say either the guy wanted Zaha, Fabinho and Nkunku and we have him Pepe, Torreria, Guendouzi.

I wasn’t a big fan of emery but the one thing you can’t slate him for is transfers incoming and outgoing, he was never included in those big decisions at best he could ask and advise.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby KG3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:01 am

Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Özim » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 am

KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


If players have regressed it's down to Arteta and the system he plays to be honest, he could have kept Martinez but sold him and kept Leno, he's got AMN he never plays so Bellerin is the regular, Laca has to chase back in midfield rather than stay up front as well.

All down to Arteta, he definitely has a better squad though.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:19 am

KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


Partey and especially gabriel is a huge boost.

Leno and lacazette regressed, or you can say that Emery just got more our of them? Especially since our attacks were much better than they were now, as the figures also say.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:19 am

Özim wrote:
KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


If players have regressed it's down to Arteta and the system he plays to be honest, he could have kept Martinez but sold him and kept Leno, he's got AMN he never plays so Bellerin is the regular, Laca has to chase back in midfield rather than stay up front as well.

All down to Arteta, he definitely has a better squad though.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:33 pm

Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:38 pm

Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Angelito » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:32 pm

On the squad strength, Emery's first line-up against City was:

Cech
Bellerin - Mustafi - Sokratis - Niles
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Ozil - Ramsey - Mkhi
Auba


Arteta's line up against Bournemouth was:

Leno
Niles - Sokratis - Luiz - Saka
Torreira - Xhaka
Nelson - Ozil - Auba
Lacazette


Post-lockdown, which is more reflective of Arteta's vision, his line-up was:

Leno
Bellerin - Mustafi - Mari - Tierney
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Saka - Willock - Auba
Nketiah


Interestingly, Wenger's final team selection:

Ospina
Bellerin - Holding - Mustafi - Kolasinac
Ramsey - Xhaka
Iwobi - Mkhitaryan - Auba
Lacazette


Make what you want to from these line-ups. Xhaka and Auba are the only constants. Leno wasn't around when Wenger was here.


theHotHead wrote:Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.


It's the Pep way. He has his set of non-negotiables. But Pep has only managed world class teams/players in his career. He goes out of his way to spend astronomical money on players who can execute his vision.

Wenger was rigid in a similar vein, yet he managed to get the best out of inferior players even if they weren't right for Wengerball. Those link-up plays between Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Wilshere, Rozza, Giroud, etc., were some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we saw in the Prem last decade.

Look at someone like Podolski. He was a second striker who was direct. Yet, he outperformed Cazorla in his first season statistically. His return in 12/13 was better than Pepe's return in his first season, better than Laca's stats since he's been here, and will be better, presumably, than Willian's this season. That was with Pod predominantly playing on the left. He scored 16 goals and assisted a further 12 goals. Even in 13/14, he scored 12 goals and provided 5 assists.

We can't have a negative GD and talk about how Arteta has shored up our defense. Arteta's problem is that he's too van Gaal-esque and wants players to actualize those training rehearsals on matchday—leaving little room for expansive or inventiveness.


swipe right wrote:Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.


While the fans will turn on him, if this continues, I don't think his job is in any sort of threat unless we end up 15th or something. Even if Arsenal were to sack him, that would be at the end of the season.

Like Gazidis ran away the moment Wenger left, Edu knows that his job would be in threat if Arteta fails. So, after Arteta, if we still continue to be lol-worthy, Edu will be booted off.

As long as we finish in the top-10, Arteta stays until the start of next season.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Interest: waning » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 pm

Angelito wrote:On the squad strength, Emery's first line-up against City was:

Cech
Bellerin - Mustafi - Sokratis - Niles
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Ozil - Ramsey - Mkhi
Auba


Arteta's line up against Bournemouth was:

Leno
Niles - Sokratis - Luiz - Saka
Torreira - Xhaka
Nelson - Ozil - Auba
Lacazette


Post-lockdown, which is more reflective of Arteta's vision, his line-up was:

Leno
Bellerin - Mustafi - Mari - Tierney
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Saka - Willock - Auba
Nketiah


Interestingly, Wenger's final team selection:

Ospina
Bellerin - Holding - Mustafi - Kolasinac
Ramsey - Xhaka
Iwobi - Mkhitaryan - Auba
Lacazette


Make what you want to from these line-ups. Xhaka and Auba are the only constants. Leno wasn't around when Wenger was here.


theHotHead wrote:Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.


It's the Pep way. He has his set of non-negotiables. But Pep has only managed world class teams/players in his career. He goes out of his way to spend astronomical money on players who can execute his vision.

Wenger was rigid in a similar vein, yet he managed to get the best out of inferior players even if they weren't right for Wengerball. Those link-up plays between Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Wilshere, Rozza, Giroud, etc., were some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we saw in the Prem last decade.

Look at someone like Podolski. He was a second striker who was direct. Yet, he outperformed Cazorla in his first season statistically. His return in 12/13 was better than Pepe's return in his first season, better than Laca's stats since he's been here, and will be better, presumably, than Willian's this season. That was with Pod predominantly playing on the left. He scored 16 goals and assisted a further 12 goals. Even in 13/14, he scored 12 goals and provided 5 assists.

We can't have a negative GD and talk about how Arteta has shored up our defense. Arteta's problem is that he's too van Gaal-esque and wants players to actualize those training rehearsals on matchday—leaving little room for expansive or inventiveness.


swipe right wrote:Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.


While the fans will turn on him, if this continues, I don't think his job is in any sort of threat unless we end up 15th or something. Even if Arsenal were to sack him, that would be at the end of the season.

Like Gazidis ran away the moment Wenger left, Edu knows that his job would be in threat if Arteta fails. So, after Arteta, if we still continue to be lol-worthy, Edu will be booted off.

As long as we finish in the top-10, Arteta stays until the start of next season.
Why would Edu be under threat?

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Özim » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:08 am

The more I see of him and of his decisions the more I think we should cut this experiment short, it’s just not working, he’s got the stubborn seemingly illogical streak that leads him to make basic mistakes with players and tactics, we had enough of that with Wenger.

I think we’ve seen what his style is, defensive all the way trying to scrape results and it’s not what I want to see personally.

He was unproven so we didn’t know what we were getting, think we know now and he’s not the answer, maybe we should look for another manager so he’s ready to come in and replace him immediately IMO.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Angelito » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:10 pm

Interest: waning wrote:Why would Edu be under threat?

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Because he's the footballing head at Arsenal. Every decision goes through him. Unlike in the Wenger years, at least until 2015, Wenger was both the Manager and the Director of Football. Today, Arteta is the Manager and Edu is the DoF.

Edu was part of the team that hired Arteta. If Arteta fails, sure, he gets to hire another manager in consultation with Josh Kroenke. If that manager/coach fails, Edu's job will be on the line. He wouldn't want that.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby ag6789 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:27 pm

No manager has a crystal ball in their hands. A manager who has been with a group of players for a long time like Wenger, will have a better understanding of what works and what doesn't. A new manager like Arteta doesn't have the prior knowledge of the inner workings of all the players. So his only option is trial and error. If your club have fabulous sums to throw around, you're in luck, otherwise you have to suffer the growing pains.
You're lucky if your club fans and followers are patient and understanding if not you get the boot. Very harsh environment out there.
Arteta has an unbalanced outfit in his hands. Also, players are inconsistent, and some are developing. So he has to do some permutation and combinations as the same recipe doesn't work everywhere. I'm afraid we will see yo-yo performances for a while until things settle down. It might take most of this season or it might just click- no guarantees. People on this site started to yearn for Carlo the Great, this season, but boom- 3 straight defeats. Grass isn't greener on the other side either!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:24 am

That should have been done last season, this season we are supposed to see development, we have gone backwards
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:13 am

People are being too hard on Arteta.

Its not easy being a Football manager and getting a win every game.

I think he has many of the right attributes but he needs to start settling on a way of playing, if he keeps bouncing from formation to formation after every bad result he'll never stop.

I don't care if he continues with the 3-4-3 just put Auba down the middle for starters and get the wide players to start delivering the creativity.

Just fix the holes and as for Aston Villa, god knows what that was from the players, that was not the same team that beat Utd, the whole team came out for the Villa game like they were on holiday, one of the rare games where even Tierney looked crap.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:47 am

Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?
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