British Politics

Debate about anything going on in the world. Please remember, everyone has their own opinion.

Re: British Politics

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:24 am

Callum wrote:My point is that after a democratic referendum, the side that lost still campaigned against the decision and ultimately got their way years later. Winning an election or referendum doesn't mean that that's, it's over, no more discussion or opposing points will be had.

Ultimately the UK voted to leave, whether that be a hard, no deal Brexit or an EEA type deal that still kept us in the customs area and free trade and movement of people continued. It was insanely vague and people had many different reasons for voting, and it was won by a slim margin.

Do you really believe Farage and the ERG would have shut up and stopped calling for the UK to leave the EU if they had lost? Of course they wouldn't, and that was their democratic right. Yet when people who voted to Remain (or those who voted Leave and since changed their mind) continue to express an opposing opinion they are labeled traitors and enemies of democracy. That's not how it works.

We've left now, anyway, and I'm resigned to the fact that the country is set for a very difficult period and diminished power on the global scale. I'm also resigned to the fact that despite all the lies and broken promises, and that this was the decision of the UK, the EU will still get the blame.


I'm fully in agreement with that, by all means go out and join the "Back in the EU" party hand out flyers do interviews and stand in all future elections, fill all social forums and blogs with "I love Michel Bernard Barnier" posts if you must ... that's democracy and free speech. But don't block the streets, glue yourself to public transport, generally f**k up other peoples lives - that's anarchy. The right to protest only applies when you can't be heard via democratic means, nobody in their right minds can claim the Remain campaign didn't get heard ... they were heard and yet they still lost that's democracy. This battle is over, now re-joiners have to wait for their next electoral chance, just like the leavers did for 50 years.

If you want to compare that with the US (and who the f**k would want to be like them) it's like supporting near anarchy in some cities just weeks before a democratic election .. WTF you will have your chance at change via the ballot box so why trash your own homes now?

The extreme minority resort to violence and intimidation when the can't win by democratic means - history is full of some very bad people who did exactly that - we should be very, very careful about supporting such an approach, even when the aims might seem legit. If you want to live in a free democracy you have to accept the democratic majority even when they are wrong ...
Last edited by EliteKiller on Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
EliteKiller
Tony Adams
Tony Adams
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: British Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:25 am

UFGN wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Callum wrote:Did the Leavers sit down and be quiet when they lost the referendum in 1975?


Callum, what the UK voted for in 1975 wasn't what it became.

We voted for a trade deal and to bring our economies closer together for easier trade, they didn't vote for a single currency, EU army or to have the EU over the decades introduce red tape galore and regulatory demands on every nation.

Go look back at the original agreement and what it is today, its not even recognisable.

That's why Leave gathered momentum through the late 90's and 2000's.

Fact is Callum people on your side of the fence simply don't respect Democracy, which is why we're in the state we're in now.
America has gone next level and can't even accept their democratically voted in President, they've been trying to impeach him since day one, that's never happened before.
Then you have BLM / Antifa mobs demanding defund the police or they'll cause civil unrest when the States occupants haven't voted for this.

This is what happens when too much socialism rises in a capitalist / democratic country, the two won't abide the other.


Oh do be quiet you berk

You are basically saying that you want those on the left to shut up and not be heard, while Tories preside over the tearing down of industries that have afforded working class people a living for generations, decimate social housing, bully disabled people, and oversee a doubling in homelessness, all while INCREASING the national debt..... before covid even came along

Youre welcome to not give a f**k about anyone except number one but dont expect me to

You havent got a clue what democracy actually means.


^ :rolleyes:

There he goes again, put words in your mouth time.

I was talking about two different countries which have different issues, one was the UK and Brexit, the other was in America which is a different subject with different issues.

Of all the things I highlighted the stuff you mentioned was not among them, no I don't expect Labour to be quiet on Housing, equal pay, sticking up for the NHS, talking about improvents in social care.

.......... that's traditional opposition practice.

I was talking about the new more extreme levels of activism in America and Callum asked why can't Remainers continue to protest as Leavers did, I explained the difference, so fk know's why you interperted that as me saying Labour should be silent on social equality issues.

This is why I can't talk to you, you just continue to add on stuff I never even said?
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 30379
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

Re: British Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:32 am

EliteKiller wrote:I'm fully in agreement with that, by all means go out and join the "Back in the EU" party hand out flyers do interviews and stand in all future elections, fill all social forums and blogs with "I love Michel Bernard Barnier" posts if you must ... that's democracy and free speech. But don't block the streets, glue yourself to public transport, generally f**k up other peoples lives - that's anarchy. The right to protest only applies when you can't be heard via democratic means, nobody in their right minds can claim the Remain campaign didn't get heard ... they were heard and yet they still lost that's democracy. This battle is over, now re-joiners have to wait for their next electoral chance, just like the leavers did for 50 years.


Amen to that.

This is the change we've seen in the last decade, activism getting out of control and being a way of life for certain people.

I remember when we used to riot or protest in unison about something the Gov't did which was fked up like in the Thatcher era when she decimated whole towns economies and it was always them vs the establishment / Police.

But now people do it for any old reason and they target joe public which is insanity.
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 30379
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

Re: British Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:29 am

Callum wrote:I'll never understand why Brexiteers demand Remainers "sit down and be quiet". Did the Leavers sit down and be quiet when they lost the referendum in 1975?


The 1975 vote was about membership of the common market, not what the EU became. The reason for the revolt against the EU was because it became a controlling force over our every day lives that NO ONE voted for.

Do the opposition stop opposing the Government when they lose an election?


A referendum is not an election. It's a rare situation where the country has a direct vote on an issue and once the country has decided, that's generally it for a generation. The reason you remainers should sit down and STFU is not because you continued the argument, it is because of the disgraceful tactics that were adopted to undermine the referendum. Second f****** votes (even calling it the people's vote, FFS), old people don't count, court challenges, hamstringing our own negotiating team and schilling for the EU, insulting people who voted to leave calling them racists, bigots, stupid.. I could go on about the disgusting behaviour that will NEVER be forgiven.

Does democracy demand the winning side get to do what they want, with no criticism or opposing view presented?


As mentioned, remainers didn't engage in debate, they obstructed, undermined, ridiculed, insulted - and are STILL doing it.

So yeah, it's time for you and any other remainer to sit down and STFU until you learn to actually be part of a constructive conversation on how we move forward, because frankly, the people who wanted to leave (and many others who voted to stay in the EU but actually accepted the democratic vote) are sick of your sh*t.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27012
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: British Politics

Postby Santi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:46 am

Same way leavers undermined it with false advertising from the get go?


I know technically it doesn’t matter because ‘you won’ but a 52% vote isn’t exactly overwhelming, unlike the AV referendum. Whilst you can argue it’s still a democratic decision, either way half the country is left f***ked whether we stay or leave so I don’t think it’s unfair to challenge one of the most divisive issues in our lifetime.

Would you have just sat and ignored it if the vote had gone against your way of thinking? I mean the reason we had the referendum was because leavers wouldn’t shut up in the first place and neither will the Scots who want independence despite losing the first vote (to a greater % than brexit) so really it just depends what side you’re on :dontknow:
Image
User avatar
Santi
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 40602
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:11 am

Re: British Politics

Postby Santi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:51 am

Callum wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Callum wrote:Did the Leavers sit down and be quiet when they lost the referendum in 1975?


Callum, what the UK voted for in 1975 wasn't what it became.

We voted for a trade deal and to bring our economies closer together for easier trade, they didn't vote for a single currency, EU army or to have the EU over the decades introduce red tape galore and regulatory demands on every nation.

Go look back at the original agreement and what it is today, its not even recognisable.

That's why Leave gathered momentum through the late 90's and 2000's.

Fact is Callum people on your side of the fence simply don't respect Democracy, which is why we're in the state we're in now.
America has gone next level and can't even accept their democratically voted in President, they've been trying to impeach him since day one, that's never happened before.
Then you have BLM / Antifa mobs demanding defund the police or they'll cause civil unrest when the States occupants haven't voted for this.

This is what happens when too much socialism rises in a capitalist / democratic country, the two won't abide the other.

My point is that after a democratic referendum, the side that lost still campaigned against the decision and ultimately got their way years later. Winning an election or referendum doesn't mean that that's, it's over, no more discussion or opposing points will be had.

Ultimately the UK voted to leave, whether that be a hard, no deal Brexit or an EEA type deal that still kept us in the customs area and free trade and movement of people continued. It was insanely vague and people had many different reasons for voting, and it was won by a slim margin.

Do you really believe Farage and the ERG would have shut up and stopped calling for the UK to leave the EU if they had lost? Of course they wouldn't, and that was their democratic right. Yet when people who voted to Remain (or those who voted Leave and since changed their mind) continue to express an opposing opinion they are labeled traitors and enemies of democracy. That's not how it works.

We've left now, anyway, and I'm resigned to the fact that the country is set for a very difficult period and diminished power on the global scale. I'm also resigned to the fact that despite all the lies and broken promises, and that this was the decision of the UK, the EU will still get the blame.



Ah just saw this, didn’t need to waste my time. Agree with everything you have said.
Image
User avatar
Santi
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 40602
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:11 am

Re: British Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:09 am

Santi wrote:Same way leavers undermined it with false advertising from the get go?


I know technically it doesn’t matter because ‘you won’ but a 52% vote isn’t exactly overwhelming, unlike the AV referendum. Whilst you can argue it’s still a democratic decision, either way half the country is left f***ked whether we stay or leave so I don’t think it’s unfair to challenge one of the most divisive issues in our lifetime.

Would you have just sat and ignored it if the vote had gone against your way of thinking? I mean the reason we had the referendum was because leavers wouldn’t shut up in the first place and neither will the Scots who want independence despite losing the first vote (to a greater % than brexit) so really it just depends what side you’re on :dontknow:


That was never a valid argument.
Both the leave campaign and the remain campaign lied.
There is no world where campaigns are going to be totally truthful - never happens.
There is no possible scenario in any election or vote where the people enter the polling station with perfect knowledge, or even close.

I didn't win, as I voted to remain. This was a personal decision as my work takes me across Europe. That said, I support very little about the EU. The entire notion of a bunch of fat beaurocrats not even in our country controlling the daily lives of people in the UK is something I could never support. It's bad enough with our own bloated govt without centralising even further. Since the vote, I have become very much supportive of leaving - and leaving with no deal - mainly because I simply don't trust that any deal will come without strings attached (thick ones) that gives the EU control over the UK.

As to whether I would have sat down if the vote didn't go my way and accepted the result. Yes, that is exactly what I did.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27012
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: British Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:18 am

Callum wrote:
Do you really believe Farage and the ERG would have shut up and stopped calling for the UK to leave the EU if they had lost? Of course they wouldn't, and that was their democratic right. Yet when people who voted to Remain (or those who voted Leave and since changed their mind) continue to express an opposing opinion they are labeled traitors and enemies of democracy. That's not how it works.



1) Remainers went far beyond simply advocating to remain in the EU. The tactics were utterly disgraceful.
2) Farage is a t**t. So, if you want to behave like him, that's your choice.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27012
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: British Politics

Postby Phil71 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:24 am

Pro leave campaigners went about their business in a civilised manner.

Pro remain people use insults, rioting and physical violence to try to get their way.

And remoaners have the cheek to talk about democratic processes.
User avatar
Phil71
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 10569
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: British Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Phil71 wrote:Pro leave campaigners went about their business in a civilised manner.

Pro remain people use insults, rioting and physical violence to try to get their way.

And remoaners have the cheek to talk about democratic processes.


The reason people are not getting on anymore is a fundamental breakdown in democratic practice.

Portions of the Left have become Far Left socialist in thinking not just Centre Left socialist leaning on a capitalist economy which results in sections of the Left simply not accepting a democratic result because it goes against their ideology.

Same way Hitler as Far Right stagnated the German parliament and caused revote after revote, then went as far as to sabotage the building to get what he wanted.

How can democracy work when the opposition simply reject the outcome of the majority, this has become more than Labour vs Conservative now, we used to vote win/lose then wait 4 years to have our next say, now we get a result and fillerbuster and fight tooth and nail rejecting it before even waiting to see if its good or bad.

I honestly think Far Left Socialists / Communists should just fk off and form their own dive in another country, move to Cuba or whatever, take over a state in the US or go to a socialist country in the EU, but if you can't hack it here then piss off and stop causing issues, we don't need it at this time, Covid is making things hard enough as it is.
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 30379
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

Re: British Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:45 pm

DiamondGooner wrote:
Phil71 wrote:Pro leave campaigners went about their business in a civilised manner.

Pro remain people use insults, rioting and physical violence to try to get their way.

And remoaners have the cheek to talk about democratic processes.


The reason people are not getting on anymore is a fundamental breakdown in democratic practice.

Portions of the Left have become Far Left socialist in thinking not just Centre Left socialist leaning on a capitalist economy which results in sections of the Left simply not accepting a democratic result because it goes against their ideology.

Same way Hitler as Far Right stagnated the German parliament and caused revote after revote, then went as far as to sabotage the building to get what he wanted.

How can democracy work when the opposition simply reject the outcome of the majority, this has become more than Labour vs Conservative now, we used to vote win/lose then wait 4 years to have our next say, now we get a result and fillerbuster and fight tooth and nail rejecting it before even waiting to see if its good or bad.

I honestly think Far Left Socialists / Communists should just fk off and form their own dive in another country, move to Cuba or whatever, take over a state in the US or go to a socialist country in the EU, but if you can't hack it here then piss off and stop causing issues, we don't need it at this time, Covid is making things hard enough as it is.



They tried...it is called Liberia.
He/His/Non-Menstruater/Postmenopausal/non-vaginal male. Yup all man!
Pat Rice in Short Shorts
David Rocastle
David Rocastle
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Location: Montana USA by way of Lewisham/Bromley UK

Re: British Politics

Postby Sims » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:59 pm



this evil witch looking thicc I can’t lie
Image
User avatar
Sims
Member of the Year 2016
Member of the Year 2016
 
Posts: 31621
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:47 pm
Location: East London

Re: British Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:04 pm

Sims wrote:

this evil witch looking thicc I can’t lie



She attended Parliament in her dressing gown?
He/His/Non-Menstruater/Postmenopausal/non-vaginal male. Yup all man!
Pat Rice in Short Shorts
David Rocastle
David Rocastle
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Location: Montana USA by way of Lewisham/Bromley UK

Re: British Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:40 am

Sims wrote:

this evil witch looking thicc I can’t lie


:rofll: :rofll:
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 30379
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

Re: British Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:51 am

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
They tried...it is called Liberia.


Hell on earth, literally.

The senseless slaughter that happened there and in Sierra Leone is biblical, life means nothing over there.

I remember watching this reporter who wanted to go to Freetown and interview people, the rubbish had completely piled over the beach there was no sand, he was led down some underground bunker to speak to some locals and he almost didn't make it out.

Some woman scag head started pestering him as he was trying to leave and a commotion broke out, even his African guide started looking shook.

Imagine being in an underground crack den ......... in Sierria Leone ffs, chances of making it out are 50% at best imo if your not armed.

You can get killed in a heart beat over there.
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 30379
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

PreviousNext

Return to The Big Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests