Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:38 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:55 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).


No, our culture at the club was built by Wenger. Brick by brick.
Kroenke didn't choose any of the players you mentioned - or any other player.
Do you attribiute all the successes to Kroenke too?
Kroenke has been the majority shareholder since 2007.
All 3 FA Cups are down to him?
How about Aubameyangs golden boot last year - Kroenke's achievement? Whilst Aubameyang had to score 22 times of course, ultimately it was down to Kroenke and he should take the credit. That's your argument.

If we win today? Kroenke's achievement?


Kroenke is the one that kept Wenger on. Yes if the club is successful he has to take credit, just as Abramovic does being the person that puts the jigsaw together to deliver success.

I don’t consider the cup wins success personally, they’re consolation prizes, nice in addition to other trophies but as a stand-alone trophy not that amazing these days, so no real credit required for that, it’s been 15 years of failure under him. If we won the league or CL then yes you’d have to give him credit for getting the right people in a facilitating success, no chance of that though as he does neither.

Now you’re getting ridiculous re the golden boot, that’s a personal achievement by a player.

You can probably ask fans from his American franchises if they think he’s a good owner, the general view seems to be not from what some say.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:01 am

Angelito wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:
How much of that was out of necessity and how much out of choice though? Pretty sure we could've spent more than 6m if we wanted to. Might have won the title in 08 if we had!

Still, its cup final day and I'm not going to spend the day arguing about Wenger.

Here's hoping today wins us the first trophy under Arteta and is the springboard to future titles!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:07 am

Angelito wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:


All very good but post 2005 he barely won a thing.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby theHotHead » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:54 pm

2 points I want to make. Want to see the impact of having the owner fully involved with the club, check out Blackburn Rovers and the Venky ownership! An unmitigated disaster.

As for our net spend under Wenger, it was his decision to be frugal and his decision alone. We were not the paupers we looked like. We could absolutely have spent more money, the annual increase in our cash reserves proves it at the very least.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:54 pm

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).


No, our culture at the club was built by Wenger. Brick by brick.
Kroenke didn't choose any of the players you mentioned - or any other player.
Do you attribiute all the successes to Kroenke too?
Kroenke has been the majority shareholder since 2007.
All 3 FA Cups are down to him?
How about Aubameyangs golden boot last year - Kroenke's achievement? Whilst Aubameyang had to score 22 times of course, ultimately it was down to Kroenke and he should take the credit. That's your argument.

If we win today? Kroenke's achievement?


Kroenke is the one that kept Wenger on. Yes if the club is successful he has to take credit, just as Abramovic does being the person that puts the jigsaw together to deliver success.

I don’t consider the cup wins success personally, they’re consolation prizes, nice in addition to other trophies but as a stand-alone trophy not that amazing these days, so no real credit required for that, it’s been 15 years of failure under him. If we won the league or CL then yes you’d have to give him credit for getting the right people in a facilitating success, no chance of that though as he does neither.

Now you’re getting ridiculous re the golden boot, that’s a personal achievement by a player.

You can probably ask fans from his American franchises if they think he’s a good owner, the general view seems to be not from what some say.


Hang on... Auba was signed by Wenger, who was kept on by Kroenke. Why is Auba's golden boot not Kroenke's achievement according to your logic?
You can't have it both ways.

An FA Cup win is a consolation prize??? Now you are just spinning any old rubbish to support your failed argument.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:00 pm

theHotHead wrote:2 points I want to make. Want to see the impact of having the owner fully involved with the club, check out Blackburn Rovers and the Venky ownership! An unmitigated disaster.

As for our net spend under Wenger, it was his decision to be frugal and his decision alone. We were not the paupers we looked like. We could absolutely have spent more money, the annual increase in our cash reserves proves it at the very least.


We also sold our best players. That is why our net spend was low.
After we'd got rid of all our best players...

Net Spend over the last 5 seasons we are 4th in the league, having spent 160m NET more than Liverpool.

Any way you cut it Kroneke has invested massively in the playing staff and should be commended for that.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Phil71 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:35 pm

Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?


Wenger is a successful football manager with huge experience, a very intelligent man, and no doubt a friend.

Why would he not seek his advice?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:48 pm

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?


Wenger is a successful football manager with huge experience, a very intelligent man, and no doubt a friend.

Why would he not seek his advice?
I understand why he would, it just worries me that Wenger might not be the best person to advise on how to 'un-Wenger' our performances. Especially when it comes to organising the defence and all those sideways passes just to keep possession.

Has he spoken to George Graham? Why not ask him how to sort the defence out?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby EliteKiller » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:50 pm

Angelito wrote:Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.


and right there is the reason Wenger after his early success then oversaw our decline from almost guaranteed top 3 to struggling for top 6 - during that same ten year period our cash reserves increased from 32m to 264m, so we had the money - that's 232m we decided to keep in the bank and not to invest on players, Wenger's belief that transfers and long contracts were over, his obsession with proving he could win it all by developing his own players, and his complete failure to recognise the need for a balanced squad not just all tippy-tappy softies, left us having to spend net 300m in the last five years desperately trying to make up for non spending during those years of austerity.

Sure it's easy in hindsight but spending 100's of millions less on new players than all our major rivals, yet still paying more in wages than all but City and Utd was a massive mistake, you simply can't afford to live on your past glories when all about you are disappearing into the future.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby aniym » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:53 pm

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


His last 2 seasons had him out of Top 4 though, the trajectory he was on was clear. You don't pay somebody £10m/yr for Europa League.

He got shit for the Top 4 trophy because it was he himself that set higher standards and still blew 2 clear cut title winning opportunities in 2014 and 2016.

That said I have no issue with Arteta calling him for advice, unless it's about how to set up a defence.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Phil71 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:57 pm

Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?


Wenger is a successful football manager with huge experience, a very intelligent man, and no doubt a friend.

Why would he not seek his advice?
I understand why he would, it just worries me that Wenger might not be the best person to advise on how to 'un-Wenger' our performances. Especially when it comes to organising the defence and all those sideways passes just to keep possession.

Has he spoken to George Graham? Why not ask him how to sort the defence out?


I doubt he is asking him to provide the tactical formation and pick the team.

Why would he speak to George Graham? I doubt he even knows him.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Rockape » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:00 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
Angelito wrote:Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.


and right there is the reason Wenger after his early success then oversaw our decline from almost guaranteed top 3 to struggling for top 6 - during that same ten year period our cash reserves increased from 32m to 264m, so we had the money - that's 232m we decided to keep in the bank and not to invest on players, Wenger's belief that transfers and long contracts were over, his obsession with proving he could win it all by developing his own players, and his complete failure to recognise the need for a balanced squad not just all tippy-tappy softies, left us having to spend net 300m in the last five years desperately trying to make up for non spending during those years of austerity.

Sure it's easy in hindsight but spending 100's of millions less on new players than all our major rivals, yet still paying more in wages than all but City and Utd was a massive mistake, you simply can't afford to live on your past glories when all about you are disappearing into the future.


EK nails it!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:24 pm

theHotHead wrote:2 points I want to make. Want to see the impact of having the owner fully involved with the club, check out Blackburn Rovers and the Venky ownership! An unmitigated disaster.

As for our net spend under Wenger, it was his decision to be frugal and his decision alone. We were not the paupers we looked like. We could absolutely have spent more money, the annual increase in our cash reserves proves it at the very least.


How about Blackburn and Jack Walker though, when they won the PL title and has the likes of Shearer.

It’s possible to have bad owners and good owners, personally think our owner is more like the former.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:04 pm

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?


Wenger is a successful football manager with huge experience, a very intelligent man, and no doubt a friend.

Why would he not seek his advice?
I understand why he would, it just worries me that Wenger might not be the best person to advise on how to 'un-Wenger' our performances. Especially when it comes to organising the defence and all those sideways passes just to keep possession.

Has he spoken to George Graham? Why not ask him how to sort the defence out?


I doubt he is asking him to provide the tactical formation and pick the team.

Why would he speak to George Graham? I doubt he even knows him.


Was sarcasm. Graham is 75 ffs :grin:
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