Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby DiamondGooner » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 am

Özim wrote:I honestly don’t know why a manager would want to ring another manager up for advice, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing he shouldn’t be in the job.

Also why would you ring Wenger when the guy underperformed for 10 years, surely you should be ringing someone successful who clearly knows what you need to win in modern football of anyone at all?

Personally I worry he’s been speaking to Wenger, we don’t want to go back to that, we want to move away from that time completely.


Tbf it is his first job that's the issue.

Its not like Emery where he was coming from PSG, Arteta is a newb, but I think he's got it in him, just let him crack on and find his feet however he wants to, its all a learning curve.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:16 am

Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:35 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


^this.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:39 am

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Wrong, they 100% do, he employs the people whose jobs it is to deliver success, if they don’t he needs to replace them quicksmart and bring people who can, so far he’s failed miserably.

As I said he’s not dipped into his own pockets as such, just the club coughers unlike some like Abramovic.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


He doesn't make employment decisions. He just authorised the money.
He's not involved in the running the club.

Taking your argument that Kroenke is ultimately responsible because he owns the club is like saying, for example, when a player gets sent off, or has a terrible game, it's Kroenke's fault because he hired the person who hired the person who hired the person who hired the manager who picked the player. It's nonsensical.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Salibatelli » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:53 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


My point exactly!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Phil71 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:58 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Salibatelli » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Wrong, they 100% do, he employs the people whose jobs it is to deliver success, if they don’t he needs to replace them quicksmart and bring people who can, so far he’s failed miserably.

As I said he’s not dipped into his own pockets as such, just the club coughers unlike some like Abramovic.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

He doesn't make employment decisions. He just authorised the money.
He's not involved in the running the club.

Taking your argument that Kroenke is ultimately responsible because he owns the club is like saying, for example, when a player gets sent off, or has a terrible game, it's Kroenke's fault because he hired the person who hired the person who hired the person who hired the manager who picked the player. It's nonsensical.[/quote]


What do you mean he doesn’t m, he’s the guy that employs the like of Vinai etc so he absolutely does, so if they don’t make the club successful ultimately he needs to replace them, which he never does as we saw with Gazidis.

It’s not nonsensical at all, after 15 years of failure you’d think he’d have learnt something, clearly not though as yet again we’re failing.

The reason Chelsea have been successful is due to Abramovic, the reason Man City are are due to the owners because they get the right people in and don’t settle for people who don’t deliver. Without them their would be no success, it all starts with the owners.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Salibatelli » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:01 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:06 am

Özim wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).


No, our culture at the club was built by Wenger. Brick by brick.
Kroenke didn't choose any of the players you mentioned - or any other player.
Do you attribiute all the successes to Kroenke too?
Kroenke has been the majority shareholder since 2007.
All 3 FA Cups are down to him?
How about Aubameyangs golden boot last year - Kroenke's achievement? Whilst Aubameyang had to score 22 times of course, ultimately it was down to Kroenke and he should take the credit. That's your argument.

If we win today? Kroenke's achievement?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Angelito » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:28 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:38 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He was in charge when we dropped out of the top four and we were on a downward spiral. When he had full control of everything at the club he got a lot wrong from the way we defend, to the players we signed and to the mentality on the pitch. We slipped further and further away from the top.

We need to change the 'losing but playing good football is ok' abd '4th place is all we can aim for'' mentality. Will our mentality change if Arteta is regularly asking Wenger for advice?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Salibatelli » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:55 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).


No, our culture at the club was built by Wenger. Brick by brick.
Kroenke didn't choose any of the players you mentioned - or any other player.
Do you attribiute all the successes to Kroenke too?
Kroenke has been the majority shareholder since 2007.
All 3 FA Cups are down to him?
How about Aubameyangs golden boot last year - Kroenke's achievement? Whilst Aubameyang had to score 22 times of course, ultimately it was down to Kroenke and he should take the credit. That's your argument.

If we win today? Kroenke's achievement?


Kroenke is the one that kept Wenger on. Yes if the club is successful he has to take credit, just as Abramovic does being the person that puts the jigsaw together to deliver success.

I don’t consider the cup wins success personally, they’re consolation prizes, nice in addition to other trophies but as a stand-alone trophy not that amazing these days, so no real credit required for that, it’s been 15 years of failure under him. If we won the league or CL then yes you’d have to give him credit for getting the right people in a facilitating success, no chance of that though as he does neither.

Now you’re getting ridiculous re the golden boot, that’s a personal achievement by a player.

You can probably ask fans from his American franchises if they think he’s a good owner, the general view seems to be not from what some say.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:01 am

Angelito wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:
How much of that was out of necessity and how much out of choice though? Pretty sure we could've spent more than 6m if we wanted to. Might have won the title in 08 if we had!

Still, its cup final day and I'm not going to spend the day arguing about Wenger.

Here's hoping today wins us the first trophy under Arteta and is the springboard to future titles!
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???/Havertz
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Salibatelli » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:07 am

Angelito wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:


All very good but post 2005 he barely won a thing.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby theHotHead » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:54 pm

2 points I want to make. Want to see the impact of having the owner fully involved with the club, check out Blackburn Rovers and the Venky ownership! An unmitigated disaster.

As for our net spend under Wenger, it was his decision to be frugal and his decision alone. We were not the paupers we looked like. We could absolutely have spent more money, the annual increase in our cash reserves proves it at the very least.
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