What's with the adulation of George Graham?

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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby Phil71 » Thu May 21, 2020 7:11 am

VCC wrote:
Ach wrote:
VCC wrote:
ag6789 wrote:Very few people on this site were around when GG was in charge. Most people are Googling to prove their points as if they have retrovision. Really foolish comparison between two different eras. From reading history, until the mid nineties, most teams had British footballers , including Arsenal, and the game hadn't really gone global. Most teams played hit and run football ( British type). Wenger really changed all that, and brought in more European style, players from world over, especially to Arsenal. Others, like Chelsea, ManU,Lpool, followed suit.
But the point is, it is futile to compare different periods, like the 50-60s to '80-'90s to present. Like Pele vs Messi, VW Beetle, '50s vs VW Passat. Each is great in its own era.

You will be surprised
Bertie Mee for me and I am a youngster to some on here,

Herbert Chapman for me. Will never forget taking my grandkids to a game to see his side

Disrespectful !
Actually Starmanb, phil, priss will remember earlier years than I, but yes I remember the change from Mee to Neil


Mee was in charge when I first started supporting the club.

The Neil years were enjoyable for the three consecutive FA Cup Finals - and the magic of Liam Brady. Overall though they weren't great. The Don Howe years were dire. Lovely man that he was, his football was abysmal.

Graham was like a breath of fresh air. He injected a winning mentality into the squad - getting rid of free-loaders and end of career pensioners, and bringing in winners. Kevin Richardson was an inspired signing. A League winner with Everton, he was exactly what we needed in central midfield. Never stopped battling for the whole game.

There was a bit of magic about that era.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby Özim » Thu May 21, 2020 8:58 am

Started supporting Arsenal after Italia 90 too, that 90-91 Arsenal team was unbelievable, great defensively, bags of flair and scored goals for fun, they were really exciting. In his latter years we weren't always the prettiest to watch but what we had is real grit, we could upset the odds and beat superior teams and you knew we always had a chance of doing so, he kept winning trophies as well, including the cup double (we did end up midtable in the leauge but we pretty much focussed on the cup and let the league slide that season as we didn't have the squad to compete for all of them) and that great Cup Winners Cup.

He never had much of a budget to buy players either but made some good signings, Stefan Schwarz was great IMO and very underrated.

As for Wenger, let's be honest it was amazing in the first few years, great football, some amazing wins and trophies but from the time he decided to ditch his winning formula and players like Vieira and Henry it became awful. The football was boring and repetitive and pretty, we were weak and easy to bully on the pitch and he seemed to get obssesed with playing midfielders in every position.

Defensively, he really got found out, the thrashings we took fairly regularly were unbelievable, including that humiliation against Chelsea in his 1000th game, in Grahams time I think we only lost one game by any kind of scoreline like that, against Man U in the league cup that I can remember, with Wenger it became something we came to expect. In the end the quality of the squad became pretty low, but we had a huge wagebill of players with no hunger, fight or desire to win and that's where we are still today, there's very little quality and it seems that we now have a manager who seems keen to stick with a lot of these guys who are just not good enough and whose measuring stick is a time when Wenger was failing.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby theHotHead » Thu May 21, 2020 10:10 am

NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Kewon apparently coached the defense in that run


Yes, both Keown and Parlour were still at the club in the Invincibles season (as was Bergkamp - not a Graham signing but a pre Wenger player who had teh same mentality as the Graham team and slotted right in) and the players at the club who were not in the Graham area had a direct attachment to it. Players like Vieira had the benefit of playing alongside Graham's defence and really understood the club culture. As time drifted on and the link to the Graham era was a distant memory, Wenger's lack of defensive coaching knowledge really came through and hurt the club badly.


The invincibles defence was equally as good as Grahams defence, Lauren, Toure, Campbell, Cole, it just went to shit after that.

Grahams defence was great, but also had a couple of seasons where they were piss poor (the 10th place and 12th place seasons in the 90s)

The Invcincibles defence was not as good as Graham's defence, they conceded 26 goals compared to 18 that Graham's 1990-91 team conceded. Interestingly Graham's team scored 74 compared to the Invincibles 73.


Graham played flat out Mourinho style park the bus-scrape-a-1-0 football, Wenger played exciting attacking football, had those players played under Mourinho they would have had just as good statistics.

Wenger was more a 4-2 man and Graham was almost always 1-0, Graham had a good season here and there where we scored more, but if you compare Grahams 9 years to Wengers you will see we scored more under wenger and conceded more (and won more trophies) and under Graham we conceded less and scored less, one of the seasons in the early 90s i remember we only had 6 goal scorers in the whole team, the defending in 1994-1995 was as bad as the defending under Emery.

Not to mention the quality of players Wengers team was defending against compared to the 80's and early 90's british centre forwards.

Its not a lot different to how Arteta has made Mustafi look like a good cb, but he looked useless under Emery.

All Wengers defensive signings since those invicibles have been awful though, even the better ones have been embarrassing at times.

I have no idea where you got that from, no Graham did NOT play park the bus style football, his early teams played through the midfield, it was only when we had Smudger and Wrighty up top that we began to play long ball football that bypassed the midfield.

And you digressed, we are talking about the achievements of Wenger and Graham versus their downfalls, nobody said Graham didn't have a downfall but few Arsenal fans hated George Graham when he got fired compared to The number that hated Wenger - myself included.

You talk about the quality of players Wenger's team had to defend against, its completely irrelevant because it is all relative. Graham's era had English forwards and defenders, so relative to what was the environment Graham did very well in the first half of his tenure and poorly afterwards. Wenger's era had far more foreign more technical players in attack and defence. Relatively speaking, Wenger did well in the first half of his tenure and poorly in the second. You cannot say it was harder for Wenger because its a different era.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby jayramfootball » Thu May 21, 2020 10:18 am

theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Kewon apparently coached the defense in that run


Yes, both Keown and Parlour were still at the club in the Invincibles season (as was Bergkamp - not a Graham signing but a pre Wenger player who had teh same mentality as the Graham team and slotted right in) and the players at the club who were not in the Graham area had a direct attachment to it. Players like Vieira had the benefit of playing alongside Graham's defence and really understood the club culture. As time drifted on and the link to the Graham era was a distant memory, Wenger's lack of defensive coaching knowledge really came through and hurt the club badly.


The invincibles defence was equally as good as Grahams defence, Lauren, Toure, Campbell, Cole, it just went to shit after that.

Grahams defence was great, but also had a couple of seasons where they were piss poor (the 10th place and 12th place seasons in the 90s)

The Invcincibles defence was not as good as Graham's defence, they conceded 26 goals compared to 18 that Graham's 1990-91 team conceded. Interestingly Graham's team scored 74 compared to the Invincibles 73.


Graham played flat out Mourinho style park the bus-scrape-a-1-0 football, Wenger played exciting attacking football, had those players played under Mourinho they would have had just as good statistics.

Wenger was more a 4-2 man and Graham was almost always 1-0, Graham had a good season here and there where we scored more, but if you compare Grahams 9 years to Wengers you will see we scored more under wenger and conceded more (and won more trophies) and under Graham we conceded less and scored less, one of the seasons in the early 90s i remember we only had 6 goal scorers in the whole team, the defending in 1994-1995 was as bad as the defending under Emery.

Not to mention the quality of players Wengers team was defending against compared to the 80's and early 90's british centre forwards.

Its not a lot different to how Arteta has made Mustafi look like a good cb, but he looked useless under Emery.

All Wengers defensive signings since those invicibles have been awful though, even the better ones have been embarrassing at times.

I have no idea where you got that from, no Graham did NOT play park the bus style football, his early teams played through the midfield, it was only when we had Smudger and Wrighty up top that we began to play long ball football that bypassed the midfield.

And you digressed, we are talking about the achievements of Wenger and Graham versus their downfalls, nobody said Graham didn't have a downfall but few Arsenal fans hated George Graham when he got fired compared to The number that hated Wenger - myself included.

You talk about the quality of players Wenger's team had to defend against, its completely irrelevant because it is all relative. Graham's era had English forwards and defenders, so relative to what was the environment Graham did very well in the first half of his tenure and poorly afterwards. Wenger's era had far more foreign more technical players in attack and defence. Relatively speaking, Wenger did well in the first half of his tenure and poorly in the second. You cannot say it was harder for Wenger because its a different era.


Agree.
The bottom line is that Graham's title winning sides had MORE games where they scored 3 or more goals than the Invincibles did AND had a better defence. They number of 1-0's in the season was the same. When people make comments like ' Graham's teams we're more 1-0 scrapes and Wenger were more of a 4-2 team', it's not reality, just some wildly misguided generalisation.
As for success, well George Graham won more trophies per season than Wenger did.
I thought we got our Arsenal back - but we got Emery
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby theHotHead » Thu May 21, 2020 10:59 am

NovaGB wrote:
Don't be a dick cos i don't agree, we were called boring boring arsenal, and yes i was like 10 years old when we won at Anfield so i'm no expert, typical of this place, you disagree and you get little gobshite comments.

How much do you remember from ages 5-10?

We probably were better than i remember, i only started watching in 89, and didn't really care a lot until the season we finished 10th which was 92 or 93, something like that.

At the era where i would start to take a lot of it in, Graham had ran us into the ground, we had a mediocre Rioch season, then Wenger took us from being laughing stocks to a force in the league, cups and did well in the champions league, and developed some of the best players on the planet, so thats where my opinions come from.

You guys just remember the later Wenger years after the stadium move and discredit everything he done, like a vendetta, it seems to be the cool opinion here to shit on everything he brought to us and the english game because you are sour about the latter years.

Thats the problem with age...memory loss ;)

At least he didn't get caught doing bungs then become a spud, thats as bad as Fergie becoming the new Liverpool manager.

My memory might be warped, but i'm not the type to hammer google before i type, i don't feel the need to pad my knowledge with stuff i didn't experience first hand, if i'm wrong i'm wrong.

We were hardly ran into the ground, we just had players that were not motivated and expectations all round were not that high. Like I said previously you will struggle to find people that hated George Graham in the end but you will find an abundance of people that hated Wenger in the end.

Your post strikes me as emotional nonsense. Nobody tries to discredit Wenger, were it not for fans that so Wenger's shortcomings he would still be manager today. We acknowledge what he did for us that was good but it does not excuse his failures and it does not exempt him from criticism. It is no vendetta, this board has its share of Wenger Lovers, the ones that refuse to find fault in him, so be it. Luckily most people are fair in their comments and praise ... generally.

You talk about hammering Google, if you like to argue emotionally but without fact, then thats your business and thats why you lose arguments. Its one thing having a subjective argument, but if a fact can refute a claim surely it makes sense to use it.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby theHotHead » Thu May 21, 2020 11:03 am

NovaGB wrote:I gotta be honest i talk to fans at games etc, i talk to a lot of gooners that are older than me and most pretty much line up with what i'm saying (not exactly), but this forum in particular is different, but to be honest, if i say one thing, and somebody else says another and backs it up, it gives me a diff angle to think about, i personally think my opinions come from getting a lot of grief from Scouse and Manc fans at school (even being in Enfield) around about the time we went down hill before the Graham sacking (get the violins out).

Anyway, i respect people have diff opinions, i just go by what i know, i don't hammer the internet for facts, cos its weak.

:rofll: :rofll:

Its weak to argue backed by facts ?!! ... if you are the future thank f**k I won't be around for it.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby NovaGB » Thu May 21, 2020 12:53 pm

theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:I gotta be honest i talk to fans at games etc, i talk to a lot of gooners that are older than me and most pretty much line up with what i'm saying (not exactly), but this forum in particular is different, but to be honest, if i say one thing, and somebody else says another and backs it up, it gives me a diff angle to think about, i personally think my opinions come from getting a lot of grief from Scouse and Manc fans at school (even being in Enfield) around about the time we went down hill before the Graham sacking (get the violins out).

Anyway, i respect people have diff opinions, i just go by what i know, i don't hammer the internet for facts, cos its weak.

:rofll: :rofll:

Its weak to argue backed by facts ?!! ... if you are the future thank f**k I won't be around for it.


Yeah, what idiot googles and wikis then trys to pass it off as their knowledge? its laughable, i just know my own experiences.

'I remember this' -wikipedia open in another tab-

If anybody has to try so hard to get 1 up, then they have deep rooted issues.

You wouldn't do that in real life when having a convo at a game, if you did nobody would talk to you for long because its embarrassing.

And thank f**k you won't be mate.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby theHotHead » Thu May 21, 2020 3:08 pm

NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:I gotta be honest i talk to fans at games etc, i talk to a lot of gooners that are older than me and most pretty much line up with what i'm saying (not exactly), but this forum in particular is different, but to be honest, if i say one thing, and somebody else says another and backs it up, it gives me a diff angle to think about, i personally think my opinions come from getting a lot of grief from Scouse and Manc fans at school (even being in Enfield) around about the time we went down hill before the Graham sacking (get the violins out).

Anyway, i respect people have diff opinions, i just go by what i know, i don't hammer the internet for facts, cos its weak.

:rofll: :rofll:

Its weak to argue backed by facts ?!! ... if you are the future thank f**k I won't be around for it.


Yeah, what idiot googles and wikis then trys to pass it off as their knowledge? its laughable, i just know my own experiences.

'I remember this' -wikipedia open in another tab-

If anybody has to try so hard to get 1 up, then they have deep rooted issues.

You wouldn't do that in real life when having a convo at a game, if you did nobody would talk to you for long because its embarrassing.

And thank f**k you won't be mate.

If I was having a convo at a game I would have an opinion and based on my opinion I would discuss with someone. But an opinion is not fact and, seeing as I am not at a game, I am on the internet debating shit with people of varying intelligence, sometimes I need to back up my comments with facts. I don't need to scour the internet, for the most part what I say is pretty much correct off the top of my head, the facts side of things shuts up mouthy dumbasses - but that doesn't stop them from gobbing off, they just try to move the goalposts - until i make them look silly again.

Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with a subjective conversation, but when people - like yourself - post bollox, it needs to get shutdown.

I think Maradonna was the best player that ever lived, some people think it was Pele, others still think it is CR7 or Messi. Impossible to prove in any case. But when comparing 2 teams in different eras you can look at stats and they "might" help, but when someone makes a claim that one team was a better defence than another stats CAN prove the argument ... and it did ... and you don't like it.

I would rather be well informed than thick as shit.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby Tony Adams » Thu May 21, 2020 5:01 pm

I just say I don't have a clue before 1990. Anfield 89 got me watching football. The 1990 World Cup got me properly into it. The 1990/91 title got me hooked on Arsenal.

I'm an armchair supporter who was lucky enough to have relatives in North London who sent down programmes etc. That led to me joining the junior gunners and being ball boy.

I hate it when people get high and mighty about bring a 'proper fan'. I used to go to the odd game back in the 90s and walk past the pubs wishing I could be that involved. Forums give me the opportunity to be involved even if it's unlikely I'll get to a game again 'til my kids are old enough to come with me.

On GG I have posted long rants about why I am a fan. His team at Anfield got me into football. The first game I ever watched on tv from start to finish. Nobody is right or wrong. Comparing him and Wenger is pointless. Both brought success which should be celebrated and both went off the boil towards the end of their time at the club.

One day we will win the league again and another generation of fans will be born. Their advantage over us is that the internet provides them with a history of fans opinions and they can see that things aren't clear cut just as they weren't in the days of Graham or Wenger.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby NovaGB » Thu May 21, 2020 9:20 pm

theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:I gotta be honest i talk to fans at games etc, i talk to a lot of gooners that are older than me and most pretty much line up with what i'm saying (not exactly), but this forum in particular is different, but to be honest, if i say one thing, and somebody else says another and backs it up, it gives me a diff angle to think about, i personally think my opinions come from getting a lot of grief from Scouse and Manc fans at school (even being in Enfield) around about the time we went down hill before the Graham sacking (get the violins out).

Anyway, i respect people have diff opinions, i just go by what i know, i don't hammer the internet for facts, cos its weak.

:rofll: :rofll:

Its weak to argue backed by facts ?!! ... if you are the future thank f**k I won't be around for it.


Yeah, what idiot googles and wikis then trys to pass it off as their knowledge? its laughable, i just know my own experiences.

'I remember this' -wikipedia open in another tab-

If anybody has to try so hard to get 1 up, then they have deep rooted issues.

You wouldn't do that in real life when having a convo at a game, if you did nobody would talk to you for long because its embarrassing.

And thank f**k you won't be mate.

If I was having a convo at a game I would have an opinion and based on my opinion I would discuss with someone. But an opinion is not fact and, seeing as I am not at a game, I am on the internet debating shit with people of varying intelligence, sometimes I need to back up my comments with facts. I don't need to scour the internet, for the most part what I say is pretty much correct off the top of my head, the facts side of things shuts up mouthy dumbasses - but that doesn't stop them from gobbing off, they just try to move the goalposts - until i make them look silly again.

Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with a subjective conversation, but when people - like yourself - post bollox, it needs to get shutdown.

I think Maradonna was the best player that ever lived, some people think it was Pele, others still think it is CR7 or Messi. Impossible to prove in any case. But when comparing 2 teams in different eras you can look at stats and they "might" help, but when someone makes a claim that one team was a better defence than another stats CAN prove the argument ... and it did ... and you don't like it.

I would rather be well informed than thick as shit.


So copy and pasting shit of wikipedia is intelligence, and not copy and pasting shit is thick as shit?

You ain't wired up right mate.

I thought this was a Arsenal fans discussion, not a cheat on your info and call others thick, like you knew it off by heart troll fest.
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby Marsbar100 » Thu May 21, 2020 9:33 pm

Wenger had over 20 years to win the holy grail, he simply failed
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby VCC » Thu May 21, 2020 9:54 pm

Opinions are like Assholes everyone has one.

Thing is your opinion belongs to yourself and is your self perception, where opinions start to get to be f***ked is when peeps think there opinion is the only rightful perspective.
Sometimes you have to agree to disagree and celebrate differences, two people can see vastly different games standing right next to each other
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby theHotHead » Thu May 21, 2020 10:39 pm

NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:I gotta be honest i talk to fans at games etc, i talk to a lot of gooners that are older than me and most pretty much line up with what i'm saying (not exactly), but this forum in particular is different, but to be honest, if i say one thing, and somebody else says another and backs it up, it gives me a diff angle to think about, i personally think my opinions come from getting a lot of grief from Scouse and Manc fans at school (even being in Enfield) around about the time we went down hill before the Graham sacking (get the violins out).

Anyway, i respect people have diff opinions, i just go by what i know, i don't hammer the internet for facts, cos its weak.

:rofll: :rofll:

Its weak to argue backed by facts ?!! ... if you are the future thank f**k I won't be around for it.


Yeah, what idiot googles and wikis then trys to pass it off as their knowledge? its laughable, i just know my own experiences.

'I remember this' -wikipedia open in another tab-

If anybody has to try so hard to get 1 up, then they have deep rooted issues.

You wouldn't do that in real life when having a convo at a game, if you did nobody would talk to you for long because its embarrassing.

And thank f**k you won't be mate.

If I was having a convo at a game I would have an opinion and based on my opinion I would discuss with someone. But an opinion is not fact and, seeing as I am not at a game, I am on the internet debating shit with people of varying intelligence, sometimes I need to back up my comments with facts. I don't need to scour the internet, for the most part what I say is pretty much correct off the top of my head, the facts side of things shuts up mouthy dumbasses - but that doesn't stop them from gobbing off, they just try to move the goalposts - until i make them look silly again.

Like I said before, there is nothing wrong with a subjective conversation, but when people - like yourself - post bollox, it needs to get shutdown.

I think Maradonna was the best player that ever lived, some people think it was Pele, others still think it is CR7 or Messi. Impossible to prove in any case. But when comparing 2 teams in different eras you can look at stats and they "might" help, but when someone makes a claim that one team was a better defence than another stats CAN prove the argument ... and it did ... and you don't like it.

I would rather be well informed than thick as shit.


So copy and pasting shit of wikipedia is intelligence, and not copy and pasting shit is thick as shit?

You ain't wired up right mate.

I thought this was a Arsenal fans discussion, not a cheat on your info and call others thick, like you knew it off by heart troll fest.

Wikipedia :rofll:

Its past your bedtime bloke
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby themessiah » Sat May 23, 2020 5:23 pm

theHotHead wrote:
NovaGB wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Kewon apparently coached the defense in that run


Yes, both Keown and Parlour were still at the club in the Invincibles season (as was Bergkamp - not a Graham signing but a pre Wenger player who had teh same mentality as the Graham team and slotted right in) and the players at the club who were not in the Graham area had a direct attachment to it. Players like Vieira had the benefit of playing alongside Graham's defence and really understood the club culture. As time drifted on and the link to the Graham era was a distant memory, Wenger's lack of defensive coaching knowledge really came through and hurt the club badly.


The invincibles defence was equally as good as Grahams defence, Lauren, Toure, Campbell, Cole, it just went to shit after that.

Grahams defence was great, but also had a couple of seasons where they were piss poor (the 10th place and 12th place seasons in the 90s)

The Invcincibles defence was not as good as Graham's defence, they conceded 26 goals compared to 18 that Graham's 1990-91 team conceded. Interestingly Graham's team scored 74 compared to the Invincibles 73.





Very good post

I think if you look at George , he had a better games to trophy than Wenger, I stand to be corrected, and look back at some of the football we played under Him, just as good as anything Wengers teams produced.

Graham went 22 league games only conceding 18 goals and losing just 1 game. Won in Europe too. 6 trophies in 8 years. A far better ratio than Wenger.

I Agree. George created a winning team that personified the club. Won in Europe. Yet the club were ruthless in getting rid of him. Without Graham there'd be no Wenger. Yet it's Wenger that's idolised and Graham's a footnote.


Graham set the foundation for Wenger’s success with the fab back 5, Wenger was great up untill 2006
- Graham had to fight with Liverpool, Everton & Utd when English teams were banned from Europe and more emphasis was on domestic glory

Arsène 11 trophies in 20+ years
Graham 6 trophies in 8 years.....

Graham at Arsenal deserves a mention, broke the Liverpool stranglehold, European record was decent. Used a lot of academy players to do it as well.

Very underrated coach
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Re: What's with the adulation of George Graham?

Postby ag6789 » Sat May 23, 2020 6:54 pm

Not underrated. It's just the passage of time that has put his deeds in the back burner. People are usually more concerned with the present or recent past. Human nature.
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