American Politics

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Re: American Politics

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:02 am

LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.
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Re: American Politics

Postby LMAO » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:20 am

EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.
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Re: American Politics

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:43 am

LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


Don't fall into the 'he I must not name' trap of thinking everyone is a far right fascist unless they are a member of momentum and extinction rebellion ... I would happily support a centre left party which got rid of nationalisation, collective bargaining and a promise of a 32 hour week with 40 hour pay as policies ... not that I necessarily disagree with those goals but they are something you work towards by building consensus not try and impose on an electorate who simply don't believe it can be done.

People turn from socialists into capitalist because that's how most people's life works, you start with everything free, go through a phase of paying your own way, then have to support yourself and the next batch of freeloaders (the kids) it's natural to have your values reflect these changes. What should happen is that from an early age you not only get used to paying your own way but also to supporting everyone else ... not by blocking streets and shouting loudly, and not by handing over hard earned cash, but by doing things like unpaid social work, picking up litter, planting trees real actions in a real world, not just liking the latest clever tweet on social media ...

If you can educate young people into democratic socialism - making money from capitalism to support social programmes - that would be far better than indoctrinating them in radical socialism only to have them abandon it all as they grow old. Better some good than no good at all who knows eventually true socialism could evolve but you have to start small.

Only my opinion which is worth bugger all I know ... but having watched the world become more and more radical every decade you know without compromise there's only one way that will end up. Kaboom
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:07 pm

LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


The oldest flower children from the sixties are either dead or in their 80s.

I heard the same arguments about the death of Conservatism since those days each election cycle. It does not work that way. As noted most people become more conservative (and wise) as they age and they make they way through life.

The problem for the left is that very little of what they offer goes beyond negative emotional pandering. Left wing idealism/socialism runs counter to human nature and simply does not work. That said as all politics is cyclical we tend to try something different after a few years of one party.

EK. you are correct that elections are never won with children, who sadly seem to be including many 'men and women' in their twenties still sucking off momma's teat. FFS, half of my schoolmates left at 16 and started their working lives because the economy and society would not coddle them.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


The oldest flower children from the sixties are either dead or in their 80s.

I heard the same arguments about the death of Conservatism since those days each election cycle. It does not work that way. As noted most people become more conservative (and wise) as they age and they make they way through life.

The problem for the left is that very little of what they offer goes beyond negative emotional pandering. Left wing idealism/socialism runs counter to human nature and simply does not work. That said as all politics is cyclical we tend to try something different after a few years of one party.

EK. you are correct that elections are never won with children, who sadly seem to be including many 'men and women' in their twenties still sucking off momma's teat. FFS, half of my schoolmates left at 16 and started their working lives because the economy and society would not coddle them.


The bold bit

Negative emotional pandering is a left wing thing is it?...... build a wall much? Send her back often? Day tookowa jarbs recently?

I also suggest that just because left wing or centre left wing policy "runs counter to" your nature, someone who openly supports the outrage that is the American medical system for example, that doesn't mean it runs against human nature. In short, speak for yourself.
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Re: American Politics

Postby LMAO » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:01 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


Don't fall into the 'he I must not name' trap of thinking everyone is a far right fascist unless they are a member of momentum and extinction rebellion ... I would happily support a centre left party which got rid of nationalisation, collective bargaining and a promise of a 32 hour week with 40 hour pay as policies ... not that I necessarily disagree with those goals but they are something you work towards by building consensus not try and impose on an electorate who simply don't believe it can be done.

People turn from socialists into capitalist because that's how most people's life works, you start with everything free, go through a phase of paying your own way, then have to support yourself and the next batch of freeloaders (the kids) it's natural to have your values reflect these changes. What should happen is that from an early age you not only get used to paying your own way but also to supporting everyone else ... not by blocking streets and shouting loudly, and not by handing over hard earned cash, but by doing things like unpaid social work, picking up litter, planting trees real actions in a real world, not just liking the latest clever tweet on social media ...

If you can educate young people into democratic socialism - making money from capitalism to support social programmes - that would be far better than indoctrinating them in radical socialism only to have them abandon it all as they grow old. Better some good than no good at all who knows eventually true socialism could evolve but you have to start small.

Only my opinion which is worth bugger all I know ... but having watched the world become more and more radical every decade you know without compromise there's only one way that will end up. Kaboom


@Pat Rice, this is a reply to you too so I don't have to quote you and basically say the same thing.

People getting more conservative as they age isn't a universal law. It seems to be one of those statements parroted enough that people start to believe it.

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Full article: https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/01 ... -politics/

Take note of Baby Boomers in '94, Gen X in '04, and Millennials in '17 since the middle of the generations are about early to mid 30s then (and it's the best 1:1 comparisons we have).

Millennials are 52% liberal (first gen that has cracked the 50% barrier in either direction), Gen X was 36% at a similar age, and Baby Boomers were 22%.

Since 2004, Gen X has gone from 36% liberal and 14% conservative to 43% liberal and 23% conservative.

Since 1994, Baby Boomers have gone from 22% liberal and 29% conservative to 39% liberal and 32% conservative.

So if anything, the data suggests generations become more liberal as they grow older ;)

And Gen Z will be more liberal than Millennials.

Also, when I say we (i.e., America since I can't speak for the UK, although I'd expect a similar trend) are going to take a massive shift left in 20 years, I'm not saying it's going to become a (far-)left world where socialism is king and capitalists are sent to death camps. I'm saying the world is currently teetering on being far-right, and that from 2040 to at least 2070, we're going to settle on a happy center-left medium.

And last thing, us younger generations aren't in favor of "radical socialism" like older generations and the right at large portray us as being. Most of us are center-left, in favor of a greater mixed economy than what we currently have, and what would be considered more left-leaning social democrats (since social democrats can also be center-right). Think of a slightly more left Scandinavia.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:15 pm

UFGN wrote:
Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


The oldest flower children from the sixties are either dead or in their 80s.

I heard the same arguments about the death of Conservatism since those days each election cycle. It does not work that way. As noted most people become more conservative (and wise) as they age and they make they way through life.

The problem for the left is that very little of what they offer goes beyond negative emotional pandering. Left wing idealism/socialism runs counter to human nature and simply does not work. That said as all politics is cyclical we tend to try something different after a few years of one party.

EK. you are correct that elections are never won with children, who sadly seem to be including many 'men and women' in their twenties still sucking off momma's teat. FFS, half of my schoolmates left at 16 and started their working lives because the economy and society would not coddle them.


The bold bit

Negative emotional pandering is a left wing thing is it?...... build a wall much? Send her back often? Day tookowa jarbs recently?

I also suggest that just because left wing or centre left wing policy "runs counter to" your nature, someone who openly supports the outrage that is the American medical system for example, that doesn't mean it runs against human nature. In short, speak for yourself.


You first need to understand human nature.

If you pay any attention to the left it is all negative, especially in the US elections. "LGBT rights" are not under any attack, quite the opposite. Accusing someone of racism is pretty much a political tool of the left now. Every little utterance by Trump is reported negatively by the media (93%), the left have been screaming for three years that Trump is evil...even Pelosi invoking religion FFS. The left claims the world as we know it will end in 10 years. All pretty negative stuff with no real solutions offered. The point is that liberal/socialist policies pushed by the left are constantly being fixed by follow on conservative administrations. That is what democracies do.

What do you care about the US wall anyway? There was/is a massive problem, Trump is simply repeating EXACTLY what Obama said in 2009 about illegal immigration and securing the border. The Dem controlled Congress passed a bill authorizing the repair and construction of that wall yet never acted. Britain is fighting illegal immigration just as the US is if you had not noticed. Just lucky there is a channel to be quite honest.

Why do care about the US healthcare system? You know better than the voters and citizens of the US I guess. I was speaking for myself obviously while you as a foreigner presume to speak for US voters. Irony seems lost on you and the group think left. I have an advantage having been a liberal until I wised up. I understand both sides and choose what actually works over utopian nonsense.

This is a video of a Bernie Sanders campaign official. Real positive stuff, threatening political violence.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... es-burn-i/
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Re: American Politics

Postby StLGooner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:25 pm

No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:34 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


The oldest flower children from the sixties are either dead or in their 80s.

I heard the same arguments about the death of Conservatism since those days each election cycle. It does not work that way. As noted most people become more conservative (and wise) as they age and they make they way through life.

The problem for the left is that very little of what they offer goes beyond negative emotional pandering. Left wing idealism/socialism runs counter to human nature and simply does not work. That said as all politics is cyclical we tend to try something different after a few years of one party.

EK. you are correct that elections are never won with children, who sadly seem to be including many 'men and women' in their twenties still sucking off momma's teat. FFS, half of my schoolmates left at 16 and started their working lives because the economy and society would not coddle them.


The bold bit

Negative emotional pandering is a left wing thing is it?...... build a wall much? Send her back often? Day tookowa jarbs recently?

I also suggest that just because left wing or centre left wing policy "runs counter to" your nature, someone who openly supports the outrage that is the American medical system for example, that doesn't mean it runs against human nature. In short, speak for yourself.


You first need to understand human nature.

If you pay any attention to the left it is all negative, especially in the US elections. "LGBT rights" are not under any attack, quite the opposite. Accusing someone of racism is pretty much a political tool of the left now. Every little utterance by Trump is reported negatively by the media (93%), the left have been screaming for three years that Trump is evil...even Pelosi invoking religion FFS. The left claims the world as we know it will end in 10 years. All pretty negative stuff with no real solutions offered. The point is that liberal/socialist policies pushed by the left are constantly being fixed by follow on conservative administrations. That is what democracies do.

What do you care about the US wall anyway? There was/is a massive problem, Trump is simply repeating EXACTLY what Obama said in 2009 about illegal immigration and securing the border. The Dem controlled Congress passed a bill authorizing the repair and construction of that wall yet never acted. Britain is fighting illegal immigration just as the US is if you had not noticed. Just lucky there is a channel to be quite honest.

Why do care about the US healthcare system? You know better than the voters and citizens of the US I guess. I was speaking for myself obviously while you as a foreigner presume to speak for US voters. Irony seems lost on you and the group think left. I have an advantage having been a liberal until I wised up. I understand both sides and choose what actually works over utopian nonsense.



Again, YOU need to understand the difference between your personal opinions and "human nature"

You also need to stop redefining words and doing mental gymnastics to suit your politics. The "negative" in the example (LGBT rights) that you raise is in fact (and if I may say, quite f***ing obviously) the discrimination against LGBT people. NOT gays demanding equal rights, that I'm afraid is a positive thing, unless of course you support the oppression of gays.

And before you answer to that and assert that "LGBT rights are not under attack" in your country, you literally have businesses that refuse to serve gays!!! You literally have gay people being sacked from their jobs because they are gay!!!

What world are you living in?

On your other points, the media call Trump out on his shit because, guess what, hes full of shit

And I raised the issue of your support for the US health system because it highlights that YOUR nature, not human nature, is incompatible with Left wing politics. Although frankly, I think we now have other clues
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:00 pm

LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But yeah, I think what we're seeing with the right lashing out are its death throes. The younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) are overwhelmingly and undeniably left of center because of all the right wing lies we've seen and had to put up with growing up. And in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left.

For now though, I'm just counting down the days until Texas finally turns blue. Maybe that'll finally be the day Republicans wake up and shift left from their current positions.


The younger generation since the 1960's have always been overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, they simply grow out of believing in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny and Socialism ... for those of us old enough we've heard "in 20 years, we're going to see a massive shift left" every decade for sixty years and yet if anything the world is more capitalist right wing than ever.

There needs to be decent opposition, but "more radical" is not the answer either in the UK as Corbyn just found out or in the US when you stupidly re-elect Trump in 2020 - not because he's no longer an Orange Buffoon but because the left simply can't muster a decent alternative, seriously how bad must you be when you can't beat Boris and Trump?

If some people paid attention rather than howling at the moon Boris has already made some fairly dramatic left turn promises for the Tories, the proof will be in actions not words but just maybe the Tories are going to move into that enormous vacuum now at the centre of UK politics ... if they do Labour has nowhere to go despite the younger generations (Millennials and Gen Z) being overwhelmingly and undeniably left of centre, you can't win an election with children ... and you never will.


The oldest Millennials turn 39 this year.


Don't fall into the 'he I must not name' trap of thinking everyone is a far right fascist unless they are a member of momentum and extinction rebellion ... I would happily support a centre left party which got rid of nationalisation, collective bargaining and a promise of a 32 hour week with 40 hour pay as policies ... not that I necessarily disagree with those goals but they are something you work towards by building consensus not try and impose on an electorate who simply don't believe it can be done.

People turn from socialists into capitalist because that's how most people's life works, you start with everything free, go through a phase of paying your own way, then have to support yourself and the next batch of freeloaders (the kids) it's natural to have your values reflect these changes. What should happen is that from an early age you not only get used to paying your own way but also to supporting everyone else ... not by blocking streets and shouting loudly, and not by handing over hard earned cash, but by doing things like unpaid social work, picking up litter, planting trees real actions in a real world, not just liking the latest clever tweet on social media ...

If you can educate young people into democratic socialism - making money from capitalism to support social programmes - that would be far better than indoctrinating them in radical socialism only to have them abandon it all as they grow old. Better some good than no good at all who knows eventually true socialism could evolve but you have to start small.

Only my opinion which is worth bugger all I know ... but having watched the world become more and more radical every decade you know without compromise there's only one way that will end up. Kaboom


@Pat Rice, this is a reply to you too so I don't have to quote you and basically say the same thing.

People getting more conservative as they age isn't a universal law. It seems to be one of those statements parroted enough that people start to believe it.

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Full article: https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/01 ... -politics/

Take note of Baby Boomers in '94, Gen X in '04, and Millennials in '17 since the middle of the generations are about early to mid 30s then (and it's the best 1:1 comparisons we have).

Millennials are 52% liberal (first gen that has cracked the 50% barrier in either direction), Gen X was 36% at a similar age, and Baby Boomers were 22%.

Since 2004, Gen X has gone from 36% liberal and 14% conservative to 43% liberal and 23% conservative.

Since 1994, Baby Boomers have gone from 22% liberal and 29% conservative to 39% liberal and 32% conservative.

So if anything, the data suggests generations become more liberal as they grow older ;)

And Gen Z will be more liberal than Millennials.

Also, when I say we (i.e., America since I can't speak for the UK, although I'd expect a similar trend) are going to take a massive shift left in 20 years, I'm not saying it's going to become a (far-)left world where socialism is king and capitalists are sent to death camps. I'm saying the world is currently teetering on being far-right, and that from 2040 to at least 2070, we're going to settle on a happy center-left medium.

And last thing, us younger generations aren't in favor of "radical socialism" like older generations and the right at large portray us as being. Most of us are center-left, in favor of a greater mixed economy than what we currently have, and what would be considered more left-leaning social democrats (since social democrats can also be center-right). Think of a slightly more left Scandinavia.


The most significant statistic is the middle ground where people take distinct political sides.

Younger people are far more influenced by media and peer pressure than older folks. We have the advantage of seeing results over decades rather than a few years thus tend not to base opinions on emotion, peer pressure, blogs vs our own reality.

Re: The the paragraph in the article you posted about racial effects on black success. Why do you think that more younger folks believe that racism is a factor in whatever measure of success or failure? My take is that younger change the world youth as I was in the day are greatly influenced by what they read and hear. By any measure minorities are far better off than in anytime in our history...yet what is the message from condescending white liberals and race baiters like Sharpton is that every deck is stacked against them. While in reality Black and Hispanic support for Trump is triple what it was in 2016. How many actual racists do you know? How many Klan members exist in 2020? About 2000 max while thirty years ago it was about 20,000. Yet we are told daily that half the country are white supremacists and the younger generations tend to eat it up. The shit I hear from my nephew in university about how crazy many of his fellow students get over this is amazing yet is understandable to me. It was sort of the same in 1975 minus social media.

Most of Bernie's support is made up of younger voters, yet his message for decades has been and remains hardcore socialism and even communism. If you look up his older interviews and speeches his support for totalitarian systems such as in Cuba and Nicaragua you might be quite shocked. AOC's talking points are right out of the Democratic Socialists of America website. Last time I looked a couple years back they were so far left that they demanded an end to profit, confiscation of private business and nationalization of whole industries. So if the younger generation is not about radical socialism then I would suggest that they are not very well informed.

A mixed or productive economy is what Trump is achieving. A service based economy which fails to manufacture anything cannot survive. What is strange to me in 2020 is that nearly everything Trump proposes echoes those of the Dems just a few years ago. That is why they are failing, they have abandoned most reason and thus the union and minority vote has shifted to Trump.

Could I ask where you live in the US? Also thank you for reasonable discussions.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:10 pm

StLGooner wrote:No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.


I would add though that this guy Pat Rice is literally sucking up the Right Wing press, literally is demonising the left, literally is denying the nose on his face re gay rights and literally is an ex soldier who's up for more war!!
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Re: American Politics

Postby StLGooner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:28 pm

UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.


I would add though that this guy Pat Rice is literally sucking up the Right Wing press, literally is demonising the left, literally is denying the nose on his face re gay rights and literally is an ex soldier who's up for more war!!



You know me, I try to be fair. I just hate bad arguments really. But there are libs that do the same thing he's doing. Which like I said is a small majority. That's why I hate these arguments. The real issues get lost and we end up in a pissing contest, pointing the finger of blame at each other. I would ask people to stay off social media and don't watch the news for a week. Actually talk with someone with a different view point than you and you'll see that you actually aren't that much different in your views overall. But when we let the media portray what the minority think, we sip the kool aid and believe it, then get emotional and ignorant toward each other. Then all hope of a proper discussion is lost.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:46 pm

StLGooner wrote:
UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.


I would add though that this guy Pat Rice is literally sucking up the Right Wing press, literally is demonising the left, literally is denying the nose on his face re gay rights and literally is an ex soldier who's up for more war!!



You know me, I try to be fair. I just hate bad arguments really. But there are libs that do the same thing he's doing. Which like I said is a small majority. That's why I hate these arguments. The real issues get lost and we end up in a pissing contest, pointing the finger of blame at each other. I would ask people to stay off social media and don't watch the news for a week. Actually talk with someone with a different view point than you and you'll see that you actually aren't that much different in your views overall. But when we let the media portray what the minority think, we sip the kool aid and believe it, then get emotional and ignorant toward each other. Then all hope of a proper discussion is lost.


I think talking in real life with people of opposing views is as you say rewarding and enlightening

For example, im a liberal and centre left, yes? So youd expect me to be liberal on prison sentencing right? (by British standards, you lot are bonkers putting smalltime crooks away for decades)

....Well actually I'm not. I support long prison sentences and tough but fair prison conditions. I think parole should be earned, not simply given. I support stricter community sentences including unpaid community work

But I strongly support proper legal aid for defendants, which has been chipped away at for years. I strongly support wiping prisoners criminal records in most cases as soon as they are released to help them get back into work more easily. I dont think its reasonable for prisoners to have to live with mice and cockroaches

I support stop and search if used fairly. I support the use of emergency curfews. However I dont support ASBOs and the like because they are only approved by a magistrate, not a proper judge.

I hate the government’s powers to snoop on peoples communications, but wouldn't have an issue with it if a crown court warrant was required.

You see? My views on criminal justice are complex and multi layered, and just being a "liberal" doesn't really cover it
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Re: American Politics

Postby StLGooner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:56 pm

UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.


I would add though that this guy Pat Rice is literally sucking up the Right Wing press, literally is demonising the left, literally is denying the nose on his face re gay rights and literally is an ex soldier who's up for more war!!



You know me, I try to be fair. I just hate bad arguments really. But there are libs that do the same thing he's doing. Which like I said is a small majority. That's why I hate these arguments. The real issues get lost and we end up in a pissing contest, pointing the finger of blame at each other. I would ask people to stay off social media and don't watch the news for a week. Actually talk with someone with a different view point than you and you'll see that you actually aren't that much different in your views overall. But when we let the media portray what the minority think, we sip the kool aid and believe it, then get emotional and ignorant toward each other. Then all hope of a proper discussion is lost.


I think talking in real life with people of opposing views is as you say rewarding and enlightening

For example, im a liberal and centre left, yes? So youd expect me to be liberal on prison sentencing right? (by British standards, you lot are bonkers putting smalltime crooks away for decades)

....Well actually I'm not. I support long prison sentences and tough but fair prison conditions. I think parole should be earned, not simply given. I support stricter community sentences including unpaid community work

But I strongly support proper legal aid for defendants, which has been chipped away at for years. I strongly support wiping prisoners criminal records in most cases as soon as they are released to help them get back into work more easily. I dont think its reasonable for prisoners to have to live with mice and cockroaches

I support stop and search if used fairly. I support the use of emergency curfews. However I dont support ASBOs and the like because they are only approved by a magistrate, not a proper judge.

I hate the government’s powers to snoop on peoples communications, but wouldn't have an issue with it if a crown court warrant was required.

You see? My views on criminal justice are complex and multi layered, and just being a "liberal" doesn't really cover it



I totally agree. And to be fair, there are repubs that are the same. I know some that don't support our rights for guns, and very many that support LBGT community.

I hate to label myself as lib or conservative, because of these type of issues, but its not a secret that I lean more left for sure. But I hate political correctness, and the whole participation trophy culture. Again though, if you listen to the media or the far right, you would think and start to believe that all Libs do. I doubt it's even the majority to be honest.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:11 pm

UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:No, it's the media that's all negative. I know plenty of lefty's/democrats. None of them are anywhere near what the right claims them to be. The media makes sure that the loudest voices are heard. Which represent a very small portion of each side. So in turn, simple minded people think everyone on the left is this way and everyone on the right is that way, and they couldn't be more wrong.

For instance, I know many liberals with guns. And I've never heard one liberal that was for illegal immigration. However if you speak with a righty, they'll tell you that all libs don't care about illegal immigration. When in reality, it's just that they don't want a wall. But as said, the loudest most idiotic person on each side is what will be portrayed and then remembered, then we paint everyone with the same brush. Yes, mostly Libs are for gay rights, but the media keeps acting like its a constant issue, and I barely hear anyone talk about it anymore. But if you constantly watch the biased media outlets, you'll think that it's still an issue.


And yea, because Repubs have never been violent or threatened anyone ever. :rolleyes:

Instead they just run over people at rally's, support the KKK, usually are up for a war.

See how I'm making sweeping generalizations? It's great isn't it!! It just makes it so easy so I don't have to actually think, and instead one stroke of my biased brush and I'm finished.


I would add though that this guy Pat Rice is literally sucking up the Right Wing press, literally is demonising the left, literally is denying the nose on his face re gay rights and literally is an ex soldier who's up for more war!!


Once again you have trouble with truth and reality. WTF is your problem anyway?

Could you please explain to me in that case what specific rights gay folks do not enjoy in the UK or US? PLEASE try. Nobody can be fired for being gay, if that happens there is recourse...ie everyone has the same rights.
Last edited by Pat Rice in Short Shorts on Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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