Trophies v Developing kids

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Trophies v Developing kids

Postby Van The Man Persie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:39 pm

Arsenal captain Cesc Fabregas has insisted that the club must decide whether their aim is to win trophies or develop young players.

The Gunners were held to a 1-1 draw with Liverpool on Sunday following Dirk Kuyt's 102nd minute penalty, as Arsene Wenger's side missed the chance to close the gap on leaders Manchester United, as their hopes of winning the Premier League title took another blow.

And come the end of the season it will be six years since Arsenal last won a trophy, if they fail to leapfrog United, and Fabregas is adament that the Gunners need to start winning silverware.

"It's true that Arsenal have got a reputation of a team who play beautiful football, but don't win anything," Fabregas told Don Balon.

"We won the FA Cup when I got here and we reached the Champions League final. However, we haven't been successful since 2007, despite playing good football.

"That's when you realise that it doesn't work. We were in four competitions at one stage of the season, but we're still empty handed," he added.

"We have to make a decision whether we want to develop young players or whether we want to win trophies."

With his future constantly the subject of specualtion, Fabregas' comments will set alarm bells ringing among Arsenal fans, but the 23-year-old admitted that while he would be open to a move away from the club, he would definitely not consider joining another English team, as his compatriot Fernando Torres did this season.

"I don't feel like I have an obligation to stay at Arsenal," he continued.

"It's not like it's now or never for me to leave the club. There's still plenty of time. It's all about patience and waiting until the right moment arrives.

"Who says I'll become a key player at my new club? I'm very happy at a personal level right now. I've spoken with [Carles] Puyol who told me that he didn't win anything until he turned 26.”

About Torres’ move to Chelsea, he added: “The thing is it happened so quickly I did not expect it. I did not imagine Torres leaving England or that he would leave in mid-season. I think it was a good decision.”

But what the Spaniard dimissed the idea of a move to rivals Chelsea.

“Me? Paint pictures? I would not paint anything," said Fabregas.

“I cannot see it. If I leave Arsenal one day I would not join another English team. I am quite sure.

"Life is all about patience and working hard," he continued. "[Arsene] Wenger is the boss and he decides what happens. I still have a contract with Arsenal and he has every right to decide on my future at the club. He's always willing to listen to me though and communicates very openly."

And the Gunners captain reflected fondly on the beginning of his Arsenal career, and 'The Invincibles' side who went a whole season unbeaten, as well as the pressures of being the leader of a young team.

"We really had a great team when I broke into the first team," he added. "'The Invincibles' had won the league title without losing a single game. I got a lot of playing time and I feel like I played a part in the 49 games unbeaten record that the team set.

"There's no doubt that it was the best team I've ever played in. I really developed a lot that year.

"I even wonder every now and then whether I wasn't a better player back then.

"It was really impressive to be part of that winning team," he continued. "If you made a mistake, there was always someone to make it up for you.

"Things have changed a lot since then and there's a lot more pressure now. Everybody's looking at me when I play a bad game.

"I feel the responsibility to perform for the fans, especially now I'm wearing the captain's armband. [Robin] Van Persie and I are the only ones left from that earlier generation and we're happy to take our responsibility.

"It's important for a team to have a good combination between younger and experienced players. I'm very happy that I was part of a great team where I learned from the best.

"The young players are now looking toward me, but people shouldn't forget that I'm only 23. I was lucky to get the chance to work with some very experienced players, but it's more complicated now.

"I'm not saying one situation is better than the other though, but there were more players to look up to before. Players who had won trophies and helped you develop.

"Just have a look at the situation of [Jack] Wilshere and you'll realise that things are different now. He is a great player. I love him and he is going to be a star. He is very strong for his age and I wish I had that strength. He will be a great player as he continues to mature.”

Fabregas also praised his manager, Arsene Wenger for the stability he had brought to the north London club, but also contrasted the difference between England and Spain.

“If a coach in Spain, like [Unai] Emery, [Jose] Mourinho or [Pep] Guardiola doesn’t win anything for three years, he’s out.

“Things are different here though. The manager is an intelligent guy and the club really appreciate what he does for Arsenal. The team always reaches the Champions League, fights for trophies right until the end and is financially very stable.

“That’s very important for the chairman, even though there will probably come a moment where he’s had enough if we don’t win anything.”



http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/pre ... er-we-want

A good read.

Very good article. Can sense some frustration there with Wengers failed way.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby StLGooner » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:56 pm

It seems like he even thinks that we lack leadership.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby UFGN » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:50 pm

Sir Brandy face manages to do both
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby Inchpräctice » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:51 pm

UFGN wrote:Sir Brandy face manages to do both

Kids don't do all that well though do they, I mean not compared to ours.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby UFGN » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:54 am

Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:Sir Brandy face manages to do both

Kids don't do all that well though do they, I mean not compared to ours.


They have got the ballance about right. They develop a few, buy some young and some experience. Because unlike wenger, he isnt more inerested in proving a point than winning trophies.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby CynicalGooner » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:01 am

Man U are a pretty rubbish example to be honest. Most of the kids they buy are shit, they haven't had anyone half decent come through their academy in nearly 20 years and it's still their old boys actually dragging them over the line, rather than merely guiding the youth

Also Nani and Anderson both cost more than our transfer record. Then of course there's Bebe....
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby Inchpräctice » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:08 am

UFGN wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:Sir Brandy face manages to do both

Kids don't do all that well though do they, I mean not compared to ours.


They have got the ballance about right. They develop a few, buy some young and some experience. Because unlike wenger, he isnt more inerested in proving a point than winning trophies.


Love how all the Wenger haters think he's on a mission to prove the world wrong about kids. Fergie and Alan Hansen already proved that 'You don't win anything with kids' so why would AW feel the need to do that again?
People call it an 'experiment' or a 'project'. They say that the Emirates is a 'laboratory'. Conveniently forgetting of course that if you're paying for a new stadium all you can afford is very talented kids or championship players. I know what I'd rather have.

It's not an experiment it's a survival tactic, and so far it's worked fairly well. We've not only survived but maintained a decent challenge most seasons. Give the same transfer kitty and stadium debt to other clubs/managers and they'd be mid-table at best by now.
I'm not saying Wenger is untouchable/God almighty blah blah but if you're going to hate him at least come up with something concrete that we can all agree on.

As for Manure and their kids. Which kids are helping their title challenge at the moment? Anderson? Shit. Smalling? They just bought him, no development there. Darron Gibson? So lame even the Manure fans hate him.
Fair enough Macheda is decent but he's not good enough to take Michael Owen's place on the bench so they sent him out on loan.
Rafael & Fabio have made a contribution this season but nowhere near as much of a contribution as our kids will make because they don't get the games.
Come back and talk to me about kids when they create the next Wilshere, Gibbs or Theo. Then we can have a conversation.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby UFGN » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:53 am

Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:Sir Brandy face manages to do both

Kids don't do all that well though do they, I mean not compared to ours.


They have got the ballance about right. They develop a few, buy some young and some experience. Because unlike wenger, he isnt more inerested in proving a point than winning trophies.


Love how all the Wenger haters think he's on a mission to prove the world wrong about kids. Fergie and Alan Hansen already proved that 'You don't win anything with kids' so why would AW feel the need to do that again?
People call it an 'experiment' or a 'project'. They say that the Emirates is a 'laboratory'. Conveniently forgetting of course that if you're paying for a new stadium all you can afford is very talented kids or championship players. I know what I'd rather have.

It's not an experiment it's a survival tactic, and so far it's worked fairly well. We've not only survived but maintained a decent challenge most seasons. Give the same transfer kitty and stadium debt to other clubs/managers and they'd be mid-table at best by now.
I'm not saying Wenger is untouchable/God almighty blah blah but if you're going to hate him at least come up with something concrete that we can all agree on.

As for Manure and their kids. Which kids are helping their title challenge at the moment? Anderson? Shit. Smalling? They just bought him, no development there. Darron Gibson? So lame even the Manure fans hate him.
Fair enough Macheda is decent but he's not good enough to take Michael Owen's place on the bench so they sent him out on loan.
Rafael & Fabio have made a contribution this season but nowhere near as much of a contribution as our kids will make because they don't get the games.
Come back and talk to me about kids when they create the next Wilshere, Gibbs or Theo. Then we can have a conversation.



Wenger bought at first but now he mainly develops. Brandy brought through beckham scholes nevilles etc but has since had less, but still some, success in developping players. Just because the timescales are the opposite way round doesnt mean one has been less successful than the other. And overall the success from their youngsters has shat on that of ours. Not that our youngsters arent good, of course they are, but success is ultimately measured in trophies.

And lets not go there with transfer funds again. It depends who you believe or who in the club is telling what lies at any given time.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby Dejan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:59 am

UFGN wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:
UFGN wrote:Sir Brandy face manages to do both

Kids don't do all that well though do they, I mean not compared to ours.


They have got the ballance about right. They develop a few, buy some young and some experience. Because unlike wenger, he isnt more inerested in proving a point than winning trophies.


Love how all the Wenger haters think he's on a mission to prove the world wrong about kids. Fergie and Alan Hansen already proved that 'You don't win anything with kids' so why would AW feel the need to do that again?
People call it an 'experiment' or a 'project'. They say that the Emirates is a 'laboratory'. Conveniently forgetting of course that if you're paying for a new stadium all you can afford is very talented kids or championship players. I know what I'd rather have.

It's not an experiment it's a survival tactic, and so far it's worked fairly well. We've not only survived but maintained a decent challenge most seasons. Give the same transfer kitty and stadium debt to other clubs/managers and they'd be mid-table at best by now.
I'm not saying Wenger is untouchable/God almighty blah blah but if you're going to hate him at least come up with something concrete that we can all agree on.

As for Manure and their kids. Which kids are helping their title challenge at the moment? Anderson? Shit. Smalling? They just bought him, no development there. Darron Gibson? So lame even the Manure fans hate him.
Fair enough Macheda is decent but he's not good enough to take Michael Owen's place on the bench so they sent him out on loan.
Rafael & Fabio have made a contribution this season but nowhere near as much of a contribution as our kids will make because they don't get the games.
Come back and talk to me about kids when they create the next Wilshere, Gibbs or Theo. Then we can have a conversation.



Wenger bought at first but now he mainly develops. Brandy brought through beckham scholes nevilles etc but has since had less, but still some, success in developping players. Just because the timescales are the opposite way round doesnt mean one has been less successful than the other. And overall the success from their youngsters has shat on that of ours. Not that our youngsters arent good, of course they are, but success is ultimately measured in trophies.

And lets not go there with transfer funds again. It depends who you believe or who in the club is telling what lies at any given time.


This.
We can raise kids whatever we want, but if we dont win anything its useless.
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Re: Trophies v Developing kids

Postby Tony_Adams » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:39 pm

I read a newspaper article a long time ago, I'm talking a number of years. I think it was in the business section but there was a big picture of Wenger which is why I read it. I honestly can't remember which paper but I'm pretty sure it was in the paper and not online, would probably have been the independent or the telegraph. The article was written by a financial expert who had met Wenger and asked him if it was possible to make money through football.

Wenger had responded by saying that it was possible through developing talent and then selling them on when they reach their prime and gave examples of some dutch clubs that made a profit doing just that. That seems to be the model our club has adopted, one where you invest and develop youth players so that you can eventually sell them for a profit and bring through the next youngsters. We are about to cash in on Cesc and promote Wilshere to his position.

I so wish I had kept the article, I have tried so many times to search online for it. It was a long time ago though, possibly as far back as the invincible season or the season after. It is the reason that I am inclined to hold Wenger responsible, I would suggest that he sold the model to the board and that is why there has been no pressure for trophies. Developing youngsters = making money and that is what our club is about, it isn't about principles or because developing youngsters is the 'right' thing to do, it is because developing youngsters makes money!

If I am correct then the thread could equally be called trophies vs making money and I think the debate would be a lot more one sided!
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