Developing players - a myth

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Developing players - a myth

Postby theHotHead » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:06 pm

It's been widely noted that Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson were great at developing young players, but I think that is absolute bullcrap !! In the 27 years SAF was at old Trafford the only kids he developed who turned out to be good players were:
Beckham, Giggs, Sharpe, Butt, G Neville, Scholes ...... I'm struggling to think of any others.

Wenger has even fewer successes in his 19 years at Arsenal:
Cole, Wilshere ..... I literally cannot think of any other player who he developed that was decent !!

Stars in the making, players who would have made it anywhere with any manager are not counted. The likes of Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas, Robin Van Persie, Anelka, for example, are not counted. I'm talking about players that came through the youth system from a young age, not pinched from Barcelona's academy.

So I put it to you that neither manager was particularly good at developing players.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Sims » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:15 pm

Players coming through the youth system has no baring on a managers ability to develop talent

It's not their fault if there's no outstanding talent coming through in the catchment area
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby StLGooner » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:42 pm

Yea it always kind of seemed to me that if a player has the talent, he'll eventually succeed, shouldn't matter where he starts at. Do certain managers or systems have a greater affect on these certain players? Maybe to a certain extent, but I don't think it's anything too dramatic. It's more so about the better opportunities that certain managers can give them I think.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Sims » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:33 pm

If anything the blame has to go from the scouts/coaches at youth level
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Godlop » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:34 pm

theHotHead wrote:It's been widely noted that Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex Ferguson were great at developing young players, but I think that is absolute bullcrap !! In the 27 years SAF was at old Trafford the only kids he developed who turned out to be good players were:
Beckham, Giggs, Sharpe, Butt, G Neville, Scholes ...... I'm struggling to think of any others.

Wenger has even fewer successes in his 19 years at Arsenal:
Cole, Wilshere ..... I literally cannot think of any other player who he developed that was decent !!

Stars in the making, players who would have made it anywhere with any manager are not counted. The likes of Rooney, Ronaldo, Fabregas, Robin Van Persie, Anelka, for example, are not counted. I'm talking about players that came through the youth system from a young age, not pinched from Barcelona's academy.

So I put it to you that neither manager was particularly good at developing players.


It's not Wenger's job to take care of the youth teams.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby theHotHead » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:56 pm

No its not Wenger's job to take care of youth teams directly. HOWEVER, we have all heard it, that Wenger and Fergiie were fantastic and the best at developing young players, but when you think about how many came through their systems and actually became good - there is not many of them.

And the manager can't have it both ways if it is the case that when a player comes through the youth system and becomes a top player the manager gets praised as being great at developing kids, but when nobody comes through its not the manager's fault.

The manager gets his youth team coaches to instill his preferred method of play on the kids, so they are able to integrate into the first team easier and are familiar with formations and tactics from a young age. It is the manager ALONE who will give the player as a 16 year old a pro contract, so it actually IS the job of Wenger .. or actually his responsibility ..... to take care of the youth team.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Sims » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:09 pm

With all due respect, you're talking bollocks

Arsene has instilled the 'Arsenal way' from youth level downwards. Our philosophies are the exact same. He cant manage the academy or the skill level of players in our catchment area

What he can do is elevate players to the next level from 16 upwards once they're in the first team, as he's done with plenty of players over the years
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Yago » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:27 pm

Such nonsense.

Wenger's only influence on the players coming through our system is deciding when one is ready for the first team, and further developing him to play at a professional level. The youth scouts are responsible to get talented youngsters to our academy, the youth coaches to develop them.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby theHotHead » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:52 pm

Sims wrote:With all due respect, you're talking bollocks

Arsene has instilled the 'Arsenal way' from youth level downwards. Our philosophies are the exact same. He cant manage the academy or the skill level of players in our catchment area

What he can do is elevate players to the next level from 16 upwards once they're in the first team, as he's done with plenty of players over the years

With all due respect you clearly have not read my post. If my post was about the number of mediocre players Wenger produced and by produced I mean developed or helped to develop, I would have to identify what I mean, so for example, the likes of Kerrea Gibbs, the Hoyte brothers, Mark Randall, etc. None of these were top players and even players like Seb Larsson who went to other Premier league clubs are not top players.

In my post I was clearly talking about good players and qualified that statement by listing examples so eve3ryone could see exactly what I was talking about. I made it clear that both Wenger and Fergie are widely acclaimed as being great at developing young players. But if after 27 years Fergie only really produced 6 top players and Wenger only 2 in 19 years they are no more great at developing young players than Allardyce or Mark Hughes !
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby theHotHead » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:54 pm

Yago wrote:Such nonsense.

Wenger's only influence on the players coming through our system is deciding when one is ready for the first team, and further developing him to play at a professional level. The youth scouts are responsible to get talented youngsters to our academy, the youth coaches to develop them.

So you agree with me, that it is nonsense then when people say Wenger or Fergie are great at developing young players - which is my point.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Marsbar100 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Improving guys like ronaldo and fabregas is still a skill of course they had talent but it doesn't mean they would get to the level they would have without the right guidance, who are you going to invest more time in fabregas or mark randall ffs.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby BS221B » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:57 pm

Even though they are not young, both Özil and Sanchez became like three times better than what they were on RM/Barca.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby elkanofan » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:44 pm

The only myth about Youth development is the more money and glossy the academy the better the player.

the truth is the opposite, great players develop themselves at all times, academies, coaches and managers just provide the right environment for them.

This is why youth football is garbage, players are taught to be robots! The whole youth system essentially needs to be scrapped and replaced with something similar to USA with the college system.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby StLGooner » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:49 pm

elkanofan wrote:The only myth about Youth development is the more money and glossy the academy the better the player.

the truth is the opposite, great players develop themselves at all times, academies, coaches and managers just provide the right environment for them.

This is why youth football is garbage, players are taught to be robots! The whole youth system essentially needs to be scrapped and replaced with something similar to USA with the college system.



And here we are in the States trying to emulate the youth systems in Europe and trying to get away from the college systems. It may work for you over there (although I don't see how), but it doesn't work here. As you can tell by our national team.
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Re: Developing players - a myth

Postby Yago » Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:09 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Yago wrote:Such nonsense.

Wenger's only influence on the players coming through our system is deciding when one is ready for the first team, and further developing him to play at a professional level. The youth scouts are responsible to get talented youngsters to our academy, the youth coaches to develop them.

So you agree with me, that it is nonsense then when people say Wenger or Fergie are great at developing young players - which is my point.


No. I think Wenger has demonstrated with the likes of Cole, Fabregas, Wilshere, Song and recently Coquelin, Bellerin and Iwobi a certain ability to nurture and develop talented youngsters into top premier league players. You can say they only came to our academy when aged 16, as you have, but taking players with potential and making of them top players is really not a simple thing. There are enough examples of talented 18 year olds who didn't make it. Of course that's also on those players, but a manager can really have a big influence on their development.
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