Saints submit to football's hierarchy

All football talk from anywhere except The UK. Includes Champions League, Europa Cup, transfer news and general World Football chat.

Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:50 pm

It might have been a photo of any Premier League training ground on any summer morning. A pitch, bathed in sunshine, empty apart from a dozen cones and as many balls: just a typical scene from a typical day in preseason.

When Ronald Koeman, Southampton's new manager, tweeted the picture, though, it immediately assumed a different meaning. Given the context, perhaps that was inevitable.

After all, Calum Chambers was on the verge of joining Arsenal, the fifth player to leave St Mary's this summer, after the sales of Dejan Lovren, Adam Lallana and Rickie Lambert to Liverpool and the departure of Luke Shaw to Manchester United. It would soon emerge that two more -- Morgan Schneiderlin and Jay Rodriguez -- are about to follow.

This was not just an image of what every training ground at every club looks like just before 10 a.m., while the players are finishing their breakfast and lacing their boots. It was -- or at least it seemed to be -- the perfect snapshot of Southampton's summer. This was all that is left after the exodus: a few cones, a few balls, no players.



The jokes came thick and fast -- Koeman's full squad ready for training; Koeman's lineup for the opening Premier League game against Liverpool revealed, that sort of thing -- and so did the conspiracy theories: this was a message from the Dutchman, an attack on the board that was selling the rug from beneath his feet.

The gallows humour and the soap opera plotlines, though, should not be allowed to deflect from the overriding emotion that arises when contemplating what has happened to Southampton: a deep, troubling sadness.

This is a club that has, over the course of the last five years, become something of a darling for English football. They won back-to-back promotions to get into the Premier League. They established themselves there with the help of a squad comprised in no small part of academy graduates.

They appointed Mauricio Pochettino as manager and played a high-octane, ultra-modern brand of football. They were rewarded with an eighth-place finish; their players were rewarded with international recognition. Lay aside club loyalty and Southampton were, more or less, what all clubs of moderate means should aspire to be.

Then, in the course of six weeks, they have had their heart ripped out. It is normal to try to explain such things through human agency. It is soothing to think there is someone to blame, someone who might have stopped it happening if only they had behaved differently. Does owner Katharina Liebherr want her money back? Is Ralph Krueger, the chairman, insufficiently tough in negotiations?

These do not hold water. There has been no fire sale at St Mary's. Liebherr and Krueger cannot be accused of being exploited by the Premier League's big beasts. They have received premium fees for every single one of their players. They have banked 93 million pounds in total from the sale of the five who have gone; that could rise as high as 130 million pounds, depending on how much Tottenham lavish on Schneiderlin and Rodriguez. Southampton are not in a position to refuse that sort of money.

No, what has happened on the south coast is different. In a sense, it is simpler. It is not one person's fault. There are no fingers to be pointed, no aspersions to be cast. It is a stark, brutal assertion of football's natural order.



Atletico Madrid won the Spanish title last season, and came within a minute or so of lifting the Champions League. Yet less than two months later, they have already seen David Villa, Thibaut Courtois and -- most painfully -- Filipe Luis and Diego Costa leave.

Not long ago, Borussia Dortmund won two league titles in a row, and reached a Champions League final. Shinji Kagawa, Mario Gotze and Robert Lewandowski have all gone. Mats Hummels, Marco Reus and Ilkay Gundogan will follow, eventually.

Dortmund and Atletico were competing at a much higher level than Southampton, of course, but it is apposite to consider the three clubs together, because all have suffered from the same phenomenon. These are the clubs that have sailed too close to the sun, who have suffered for threatening the established order, whose glint has caught the magpie eyes.




Football has always had a hierarchy, of course, a pecking order. There have always been big clubs with lots of money and smaller clubs with less. The former raid the latter; it is how things have always been.

What is troubling, though, is how the boundaries have shifted. Southampton will be told that their players wanted Champions League football, or the chance to win trophies. It is an age-old battle for smaller sides to persuade their stars that they can achieve those aims without moving, if only they have a little patience.

But the examples of Atletico and Dortmund suggest that, in reality, even that would not be enough. Luis and Costa had all that in Madrid, and so did Kagawa, Gotze and Lewandowski. They had all won titles. They had seen that they could be competitive in the Champions League. They all still left.

Why should you care? Well, even if you do not support any of those three clubs, it should trouble you because it suggests that whatever your side is doing, it is ultimately futile. You may, like Atletico or Dortmund, have some fleeting taste of glory. It will not last. Your insurrection will be quashed. Money -- and more importantly, power -- will tell.

Like Southampton, you may do everything right. You may invest millions in your academy and win the praise and admiration of outside observers for the way you go about your business. Eventually, though, all that work will be done for someone else's benefit. The giants will come and they will take your jewels, and you will have to start all over again. You may have 100 million pounds to do it, which will help, but you will also be seen as a selling club, which won't.



And if you support one of the big beasts, one of the dozen or so teams who can pick the bones of everyone else? Well, maybe you should delight in your team's strength.

True, things might get a little repetitive. True, it suggests that your scouts aren't up to much -- simply buying in a ready-made team from elsewhere, in bulk, as Liverpool and Chelsea have done in one summer, and Bayern Munich seem to be doing over three, is awfully lazy -- and that your youth system is a bit of a waste of money (why raise our own players when Southampton can do it for us?) but that does not matter, does it, when there are trophies to be won and glamour to be sampled?

Maybe, though, it would be wise to remember that football does not just have a hierarchy: it also has a sense of irony. Only two clubs -- as ESPN FC's Miguel Delaney wrote last week -- sit at the very apex of the pyramid: Real Madrid and Barcelona. Even Bayern, as Toni Kroos proved, sometimes have to succumb.

But then Real and Barcelona, for all their spending, are not invincible. There is always another challenger, another Atletico, another Dortmund ready to rise up. Perhaps it would be a better idea trying to learn their wisdom, rather than buying their submission.



© http://www.espnfc.com/blog/espn-fc-unit ... -hierarchy
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35991
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby S&W the no1Fan » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:35 pm

nice article and an interesting perspective. I guess it all boils down to money and explains why we struggled previously. It also explains why even if we won the odd trophy during our drought much wouldnt have changed in terms of player departures.
User avatar
S&W the no1Fan
Tony Adams
Tony Adams
 
Posts: 5617
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:42 pm

Salt and Wenger wrote:nice article and an interesting perspective. I guess it all boils down to money and explains why we struggled previously. It also explains why even if we won the odd trophy during our drought much wouldnt have changed in terms of player departures.


This.

...Money -- and more importantly, power -- will tell.

Like Southampton, you may do everything right. You may invest millions in your academy and win the praise and admiration of outside observers for the way you go about your business. Eventually, though, all that work will be done for someone else's benefit. The giants will come and they will take your jewels, and you will have to start all over again. You may have 100 million pounds to do it, which will help, but you will also be seen as a selling club, which won't.


And especially this

If you look at where all our stars players went to during our trophy drought, you'll see that what Soton are going through now and what we've been going through over the past 8+ years are somewhat similar. We've done well to stay in the top 4 all those trophyless years
Ramsdale
(Turner/Hein)
White Saliba Gabriel Zinchenko
(Tomiyasu/Niles) (Timber/Holding) (Trusty/Kiwior) (Tierney/Tavares)
Odegaard(c) —- Rice
(Xhaka/Lokonga) —- (Partey/Elneny)
Havertz
(Jorginho/Vieira)
Saka Jesus Martinelli
(Pepe/Nelson) (Nketiah/Balogun) (Trossard/ESR)


Last Updated: 07/02/23
User avatar
CrimsonGunner11
Predictions League 2011-12, 2017-18 Winner
Predictions League 2011-12, 2017-18 Winner
 
Posts: 18778
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:14 pm
Location: The Peach State

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby AG13 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:37 pm

This is a really good article and makes a ton of good points. It really does explain why we failed for so long, and absolves Wenger of a lot of the blame.
P38 W26 D12 L0
User avatar
AG13
Thierry Henry
Thierry Henry
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:33 am
Location: Northwest United States

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:49 pm

This happens to Atletico Madrid almost every year and it doesn't seem to stop them from consistently scouting out amazing players and keeping thenselves in the CL.

Sent from Galaxy Mega 6.3 using Tapatalk
Highbury Hillbilly
George Graham
George Graham
 
Posts: 13046
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:43 am

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby S&W the no1Fan » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:10 pm

aniym wrote:This happens to Atletico Madrid almost every year and it doesn't seem to stop them from consistently scouting out amazing players and keeping thenselves in the CL.

Sent from Galaxy Mega 6.3 using Tapatalk


well thats not true is it
User avatar
S&W the no1Fan
Tony Adams
Tony Adams
 
Posts: 5617
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:29 pm

Anyone but me think that a salary or transfer cap would help out the smaller clubs? I know most don't want to see this as they associate it with American sports and to them that's the axis of evil, but if it worked and actually brought parity to football, I think with Wenger in charge it would benefit Arsenal greatly.
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35991
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby Arsenal~Fanatic » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:33 pm

Salary cap is a great idea on paper but extremely tough to enforce similar to FFP. has FFP made any significant difference? People have found ways to work around it and a similar thing will happen with the salary cap.
User avatar
Arsenal~Fanatic
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 24374
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:36 pm

Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Salary cap is a great idea on paper but extremely tough to enforce similar to FFP. has FFP made any significant difference? People have found ways to work around it and a similar thing will happen with the salary cap.



It has helped tremendously in the NFL and NHL. And no idea is ever perfect, but I think def worth looking in to.

To me it just means when you do win, it show you have a more complete well rounded club. Cause it takes everyone involved from the youth scouts all the way up to the manager. Can't just go buy the top players and practically pay for a trophy, you have to actually rely on youth and buying the right players at the right price, at the right time.
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35991
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby UFGN » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:41 pm

It doesn't absolve Wenger of any blame imh.

its is an opinion peice based on the narrow assumption that all players see world football as a giant career ladder with the joint holy grails of Barca and Madrid being the only true pinnacle of success.
Corinthians 15:57; But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus

Image
User avatar
UFGN
Member of the Year 2014, 2019
Member of the Year 2014, 2019
 
Posts: 23536
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: London, init

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby Swan » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:43 pm

ChVïnt22 wrote:Anyone but me think that a salary or transfer cap would help out the smaller clubs? I know most don't want to see this as they associate it with American sports and to them that's the axis of evil, but if it worked and actually brought parity to football, I think with Wenger in charge it would benefit Arsenal greatly.

It would really come down to best run clubs win not the most spent clubs.
Swan
David Rocastle
David Rocastle
 
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:28 pm
Location: kitchener , canada

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby nassau_gunner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:48 pm

Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Salary cap is a great idea on paper but extremely tough to enforce similar to FFP. has FFP made any significant difference? People have found ways to work around it and a similar thing will happen with the salary cap.

Agreed. The problem is all teams involved are not confined to one country. I think it would work if you were to restrict it to just England (or any one country), but once you include the lure of European and to some extent global supremacy (in a footballing sense), not to mention two corrupt organizations in FIFA and UEFA, the logistics of trying to police that system is damn near impossible.
User avatar
nassau_gunner
Charlie George
Charlie George
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:00 pm

nassau_gunner wrote:
Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Salary cap is a great idea on paper but extremely tough to enforce similar to FFP. has FFP made any significant difference? People have found ways to work around it and a similar thing will happen with the salary cap.

Agreed. The problem is all teams involved are not confined to one country. I think it would work if you were to restrict it to just England (or any one country), but once you include the lure of European and to some extent global supremacy (in a footballing sense), not to mention two corrupt organizations in FIFA and UEFA, the logistics of trying to police that system is damn near impossible.



I think the opposite actually. If you just restricted it to England then that would hurt the leagues there, and not as many good players would be able to come, nor would want to knowing they can only get paid so much, so they'd just choose other leagues. So it would have to be world wide, and be FIFA enforced or something along those lines. Which I agree would be hard to do.
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35991
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby Apollo » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:04 pm

Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Salary cap is a great idea on paper but extremely tough to enforce similar to FFP. has FFP made any significant difference? People have found ways to work around it and a similar thing will happen with the salary cap.



FFP hurts the smaller clubs more than it helps then, it favours the already rich and successful.The only time a teams have shook the BPL power balance was from large big daddy investments(Chelsea,City) this cant happen anymore so the top will always reamain the top, which is sad.

At least with salary caps you could have a standard all across the board and make it more difficult for clubs to have an XI of absolute worldies because it wouldnt be affordable, you'd need to shift to bring in not just for transfer fee but clear cap space. Keeps the talent pool more spread out.

Won't ever happen, coz that's not what sells but it would be interesting for the world of football.
Image

Fantasy Premier League Champion 2013/2014
Fantasy World Cup Champion 2014
User avatar
Apollo
Bertie Mee
Bertie Mee
 
Posts: 8832
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:37 pm
Location: Mt. Olympus

Re: Saints submit to football's hierarchy

Postby Apollo » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:07 pm

Swan wrote:
ChVïnt22 wrote:Anyone but me think that a salary or transfer cap would help out the smaller clubs? I know most don't want to see this as they associate it with American sports and to them that's the axis of evil, but if it worked and actually brought parity to football, I think with Wenger in charge it would benefit Arsenal greatly.

It would really come down to best run clubs win not the most spent clubs.


It would probably still come down to the most spent, but they would at least have to try and spend smarter.

You wouldnt be bringing in 100k players to sit on the bench.
Image

Fantasy Premier League Champion 2013/2014
Fantasy World Cup Champion 2014
User avatar
Apollo
Bertie Mee
Bertie Mee
 
Posts: 8832
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:37 pm
Location: Mt. Olympus

Next

Return to World Football

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests
cron