Is the Premier League slipping?

All football talk from anywhere except The UK. Includes Champions League, Europa Cup, transfer news and general World Football chat.

Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:21 pm

Just as Arsenal were arriving at Villa Park on Monday night, at the Ballon d'Or ceremony Ruud Gullit and Fernanda Lima welcomed the final three members of the FIFA FIFPro World XI -- Lionel Messi, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Cristiano Ronaldo -- onto the stage in Zurich’s Kongresshaus.

Their arrival confirmed what we had known all along: though some 14 Premier League players had made the 55-strong list of nominees, for the third time in four years not one of them would be elected to the final XI.

Looking at the players selected ahead of them, it is hard to argue. The 50,000 plus professional players who voted had constructed quite a side. Manuel Neuer, Philipp Lahm and Franck Ribery from Bayern Munich; Xavi, Andres Iniesta, Daniel Alves and Messi of Barcelona; two players from Real Madrid -- Sergio Ramos and Cristiano Ronaldo -- and two from Paris Saint-Germain in the form of Thiago Silva and Ibrahimovic.

True, the midfield looked a little imbalanced: perhaps it is time for FIFPro to recognise the way the game has gone and carve up the long-list a little more. It is currently divided into goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders and attackers. Maybe a “defensive midfielders” category could be introduced. We could call it ‘The Sergio Busquets’ award -- or perhaps a nod to the man who defined the role in the modern game, Claude Makelele -- and have done with it.

The suspicion is that the Premier League may need similarly special treatment if it is to be recognised in coming years. That is not to say that there are not outstanding players in England: there are, obviously. There’s Yaya Toure, David Silva, Aaron Ramsey, Eden Hazard, Robin van Persie, Luis Suarez, Hugo Lloris, Sergio Aguero and Wayne Rooney, for a start.

But it is not beyond the realms of the imagination to suggest that the balance of next year’s FIFPro XI will be broadly similar to this one’s: drawn largely from Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich. The Premier League giants will have to compete for the few remaining slots with France, Italy and the rest of Germany.*

The natural conclusion to this is that the Premier League is not quite the bastion of brilliance it sets itself up to be, to remark that the very best players in the world do not play in England.

That is broadly true, at least in the sense that the number of top-class players who have come to the Premier League in their prime is very few: Jurgen Klinsmann, Dennis Bergkamp, Andriy Shevchenko, Michael Ballack, Mesut Ozil and possibly Yaya Toure.

The vast majority of others have either come before it -- Cristiano Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Suarez -- or after it -- Gianfranco Zola, Gianluca Vialli and most of the rest of the initial invasion. There have been some who have found sanctuary here after being undervalued at clubs abroad -- Henry again, Patrick Vieira -- and others who have come from smaller leagues, where success is not (rightly or wrongly) seen as the ultimate gauge of quality: the likes of Ruud van Nistelrooy and Ricardo Carvalho.

More often than not, the very best do play in Europe. Some never show any inclination to come to England; some consider it and refuse; some do a brief stint and then depart. What the Premier League does instead, then, is to create stars, some foreign, some homegrown. It is an environment in which players become world-class. That is no bad thing; indeed, that sense of vigour and ambition and urgency is one of the reasons it is so alluring.

But this creates something of a quandary. The nature of the FIFA awards -- including the Team of the Year -- is not so much a celebration of excellence over the course of the last 12 months, but a contest based largely on popularity and fame.

A glance at who missed out, and who went in, proves that. 2013 was not a vintage year for Ramos, Iniesta, Xavi or Alves, though of course they all do remain among the finest players in the world.

But David Alaba, the Bayern left-back, had a better 2013 than Alves, a right-back selected in his position. He is, though, not quite as famous. The same goes for Mehdi Benatia, now at Roma, who lost just two games all year. Toni Kroos, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Ilkay Gundogan and Robert Lewandowski all missed out, too, for their successes with Bayern and Dortmund respectively.



Such omissions suggest that the players who vote for the award are not doing so because they have carefully studied every game each of the 55 contenders has played over the last 12 months. They are, quite often, just noting down who they think is “the best” generally, not who they think has been the best over the course of the year.

Here, then, the crux of the issue and the start of the quandary. The FIFPro XI is a popularity contest which featured no players from the most popular league in the world. It is voted for by professional players -- so, in all fairness, we should probably respect their judgment -- offering their opinion on the rather nebulous concept of who is “the best” over an unspecified period of time and in an unspecified way.

What, then, does this say about what people think of the Premier League? Judging by the views of the players, they do not think it contains the best players in the world, but still they watch it, just as everyone does. But are they doing it because it is exciting, or because they believe it is home to genuine excellence?

By the time Ibrahimovic, Messi, Ronaldo and the rest were stalking through the mixed zone in Zurich, flanked by minders and swaddled by apparatchiks, Arsenal had gone top of the Premier League. Just two points separate the top three, then come a gaggle of four clubs, including Liverpool and Manchester United, before a relegation battle that encompasses everyone from Hull, in 10th, down.

Even by the heightened standards of the deliberately melodramatic Premier League, this year is shaping up to be a classic. No doubt many of the players who cast their votes for the team of 2013 will be glued to their screens in anticipation as the campaign builds to its inevitably overblown crescendo.

Are they watching it, though, because they believe it to be high art? Are they watching it because it is the most beautiful? Or are they watching it because it is entertaining, breathless, frenzied? When the world sits and watches, is it the football equivalent of going to the ballet or the opera or the theatre, where you see the very finest exponents of those skills at their very best, or is it akin to going to the cinema and seeing the latest Michael Bay blockbuster? Lots of explosions and lots of action, but not much art?

*Ordinarily, this changes a little in World Cup year, with the winners of the tournament sweeping the awards, wherever their players ply their trade. That was true of the original World Player of the Year in 1994 (Romario), 1998 (Zinedine Zidane), 2002 (Ronaldo) and 2006 (Fabio Cannavaro). In 2010, despite a disappointing World Cup, Messi won it, ahead of Xavi and Iniesta. It will be an intriguing measure of the World Cup’s relative importance to players to see how much influence it has on the awards, individual and collective, this season.



© http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcuni ... 20?cc=5901
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35991
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Angelito » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:07 pm

No. It's FIFA that, for the past two years, didn't know that there are clubs not named Real Madrid and Barcelona, and a league not named La Liga. This year, it's gone to three clubs and Zlatan.
Image
User avatar
Angelito
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 30546
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Lyra

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Yorkyblue » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:10 pm

Angelito wrote:No. It's FIFA that, for the past two years, didn't know that there are clubs not named Real Madrid and Barcelona, and a league not named La Liga. This year, it's gone to three clubs and Zlatan.


I thought people voted rather than FIFA picking it?

I don#t think it's slipping though in any way. If anything it's getting better. It's only due to the other leagues being shit compared to the Premier League (apart from a couple of clubs).
Image
User avatar
Yorkyblue
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Sims » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:11 pm

The Premier League always has had a collection of amazing players, whereas the other League's have one or two of the best players. The Prem is still easily the strongest league in the World.
Image
User avatar
Sims
Member of the Year 2016
Member of the Year 2016
 
Posts: 31621
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:47 pm
Location: East London

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Schlandi » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:09 pm

Sims wrote:The Prem is still easily the strongest league in the World.


easily :rofll:

Cause of that despite Chelsea all PL clubs f***ked up lately in the european competitions ? :think:

2010/2011 two PL teams in the CL quarterfinals (ManUnited (runner-up) , Spurs (out)) & zero teams in the EL quarterfinals
-> semi finals CL 2xSpain 1x Germany 1xEngland
2011/2012 one PL team in the CL quarterfinals (Chelsea (winner)) & zero teams in the EL quarterfinals
-> semi finals CL 2xSpain 1xGermany 1xEngland
2012/2013 zero PL teams in the CL quarterfinals & three teams in the EL quarterfinals (Chelsea (winner), Spurs (out), Newcastle (out))
-> semi finals CL 2xSpain 2xGermany

2013/2014 last 16
ManCity - Barca
Arsenal -Bayern
Piraeus - ManUnited
Gala - Chelsea

That doesn't look like four teams survive this round easily ..
Image

#GoonersWorldExcuses
- Their goalkeerper had the game of his life
- We should have had 10+ penalties .. shit ref
- If long term injured player xyz would have been available we would have won easily
User avatar
Schlandi
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 11111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:52 am

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Yorkyblue » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:10 pm

He's talking about the whole league being strong. Not just a couple of teams in the whole division.
Image
User avatar
Yorkyblue
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Zenith » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:11 pm

It's about the whole picture Schland.

Bayern, Real and Barcelona are currently all three better than any other Premier League side but that doesn't mean the leagues they play in are better.

It's no coincidence that 95% of the (ex-) players who played both in La Liga/Bundesliga and the Premier League say that the EPL is the hardest league they have played in. Not just the hardest in terms of physicalality but also because you have very little time and space.

Why do you think players who play for a top 15 La Liga or Bundesliga side nowadays push for a move so they can play for teams like like Cardiff? Better league, better wages and just better for their development as a footballer in general.

Teams like Bayern and Real Madrid can field an entire b-side against a bottom table club and beat them comfortably away from home with a three-goal margin. This to rest their main players for the CL game in midweek. Not something a Premier League can do because the contrast between teams isn't as big. A mid table/bottom table EPL team is just significantly stronger - both financially and football wise, than a mid table/bottom table Bundesliga or La Liga team.

A league should be rated based on how good the average team of that league is and not exclusively based on how well its top teams do in European competitions.
Image
User avatar
Zenith
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 38022
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:48 pm
Location: Across the North Sea, 200-something miles away from The Grove

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Schlandi » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:17 pm

Germany had three different teams in the CL semi finals, Spain two, England two.
And the not Top-4 PL clubs are also average in the EL.

If the whole league would be still THAT strong that it's easily the best in the world these numbers should look different.
Image

#GoonersWorldExcuses
- Their goalkeerper had the game of his life
- We should have had 10+ penalties .. shit ref
- If long term injured player xyz would have been available we would have won easily
User avatar
Schlandi
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 11111
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:52 am

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Angelito » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:30 pm

Since 2005, Liverpool, Arsenal, United (x2), and Chelsea (x2)--four different teams have reached the finals of the CL. Three have won it. From La Liga, only one team has reached the Final since 2003. From BuLi, Bayern has gotten to the final thrice--winning it once, with Dortmund being the second team from Germany in the final after Leverkuson in 2002.

2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, and 2012 all had English finalists (4 different teams). 2010, 2012, and 2013 had German finalists (Bayern and Dortmund). 2006, 2009, 2011 had a Spanish finalist (Barca). 2005, 2007, and 2010 had Italian finalists (Milan twice, once Inter).

So it's really absurd to say that the League (English) is slipping. With Bayern buying off all competition (Dortmund), BuLi has practically become a one-horse race. La Liga is getting interesting with Atletico but how long can they compete with the big boys due to the massive rift in finances? Serie A is in shit right now.
Image
User avatar
Angelito
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 30546
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Lyra

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Yorkyblue » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:34 pm

Good posts Angelito and Zenith.
Image
User avatar
Yorkyblue
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 19428
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby elkanofan » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:39 pm

Its true. The premier league is shit. The German league is better, the premiership is lucky every other league around is shit also.

Teams like Fulham ad Norwich are f***ing awful. The Premiership is hurt badly by the sheer amount of mercenaries brought into these lower midtable clubs, many of these players just do not give a shit. Lovely star names everywhere but names that don't care so the football is still poor.

Look at Hull in midtable with a god awful average team. Its because they actually invested in keeping together much of last years squad, much like Swansea so they are doing ell. They need to look at Swansea who are struggling now because the players they have brought in just do not care, whatsoever. This has been a feature in the league for a while.

Team comes up, keeps most of last years squad, does well for a season, then as soon as they start buying foreigners without rhyme or reason they f**k up and get relegated.

England cannot hide it's poor depth of talent to choose from and it's awful integration of young players. Hyping up every single young prospect like Morrison as the next Zidane is nothing sort of pathetic. There should be 10 Morrisons appearing every year! Lower and midtable sides have zero identity, hence why even the Spanish league which is rather poor is better because teams actually play as a unit and work together (not very well defensively i say but more so than in the premiership).

Interestingly on a Spanish forum i look at they have been surprised about Negredo's performance in the premiership, because as i knew before and they all think Negredo is a very, very average striker. I think he isn't great either i just think the premiership suits him.

The Premiership was only the best in a transition period in 2007-2008, it's regressed every year since. The problem is simple, they need to start bringing more English or British talent into it's sides.
Image
User avatar
elkanofan
George Graham
George Graham
 
Posts: 14648
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: I'm goin Latin America

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Popey » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:22 pm

Angelito wrote:Since 2005, Liverpool, Arsenal, United (x2), and Chelsea (x2)--four different teams have reached the finals of the CL. Three have won it. From La Liga, only one team has reached the Final since 2003. From BuLi, Bayern has gotten to the final thrice--winning it once, with Dortmund being the second team from Germany in the final after Leverkuson in 2002.

2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, and 2012 all had English finalists (4 different teams). 2010, 2012, and 2013 had German finalists (Bayern and Dortmund). 2006, 2009, 2011 had a Spanish finalist (Barca). 2005, 2007, and 2010 had Italian finalists (Milan twice, once Inter).

So it's really absurd to say that the League (English) is slipping. With Bayern buying off all competition (Dortmund), BuLi has practically become a one-horse race. La Liga is getting interesting with Atletico but how long can they compete with the big boys due to the massive rift in finances? Serie A is in shit right now.


this
Image

"Flamini played in more CL finals and won more trophies in England than anyone at Spurs"

madJens
bacary-sol-cashley
vieira-cesc
freddie-alexis-pires
dennis-thierry
User avatar
Popey
Bertie Mee
Bertie Mee
 
Posts: 8218
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby Elyse » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:52 pm

Just watch Lorient - Guingamp on saturday night and you will feel way better about the premier league :p
Image
User avatar
Elyse
Patrick Vieira
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:58 am
Location: France

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby elkanofan » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:52 pm

Zenith wrote:It's about the whole picture Schland.

Bayern, Real and Barcelona are currently all three better than any other Premier League side but that doesn't mean the leagues they play in are better.

It's no coincidence that 95% of the (ex-) players who played both in La Liga/Bundesliga and the Premier League say that the EPL is the hardest league they have played in. Not just the hardest in terms of physicalality but also because you have very little time and space.

Why do you think players who play for a top 15 La Liga or Bundesliga side nowadays push for a move so they can play for teams like like Cardiff? Better league, better wages and just better for their development as a footballer in general.

Teams like Bayern and Real Madrid can field an entire b-side against a bottom table club and beat them comfortably away from home with a three-goal margin. This to rest their main players for the CL game in midweek. Not something a Premier League can do because the contrast between teams isn't as big. A mid table/bottom table EPL team is just significantly stronger - both financially and football wise, than a mid table/bottom table Bundesliga or La Liga team.

A league should be rated based on how good the average team of that league is and not exclusively based on how well its top teams do in European competitions.


I disagree in regards to the bottom teams in England being good. If any of the top teams where truly near Bayerns/Madrid/Barca etc.. level these teams would be smashed 4-0, 5-0 every week in accordance. the Premiership's top teams aren't' good enough to field reserve sides and comfortably beat lower sides with ease, well i mean in the better year Arsenal used to do it (Carling Cup).

I used Fulham again as my main example. Lots of names, good players in yesteryear but if they can't be bothered and their attention lies elsewhere along with buying so many players with few actually settling in? The team overall just isn't very good.

On paper most premier league established teams should beat Hull with ease, same with Crystal palace but that has not happened at all because teams like Fulham and Norwich have no philosophy or togetherness as a team at all. Tactically also they are rather awful.

Players push for moves because of money, you have many players who could be in another league being a star sitting on the bench at teams like Fulham, wasting their ability for cash.

The Premier Leagues top teams have dropped which this season is making it more competitive and exciting, as you can see the league is already divined into two halfs. Top teams from 1-8 and the pile of total shit below.
Image
User avatar
elkanofan
George Graham
George Graham
 
Posts: 14648
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: I'm goin Latin America

Re: Is the Premier League slipping?

Postby elkanofan » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:55 pm

Elyse wrote:Just watch Lorient - Guingamp on saturday night and you will feel way better about the premier league :p


The French league is f***ing awful! Dreadful, very negative sides throughout. Better than Serie A still which says everything about how diabolical that league is these days. Only one team through to the knockout champions league stages and they where lucky and all.

The Bundersliga is the best, what it needs is for the powers of Hamburg, Bremen, Stuttgart to start providing some consistency year upon year.
Image
User avatar
elkanofan
George Graham
George Graham
 
Posts: 14648
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: I'm goin Latin America

Next

Return to World Football

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot] and 12 guests