Cesc Fàbregas

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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Dejan » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:11 pm

Amazing

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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:25 pm

Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Looking at the exact quote.

They were pretty much done by the time they were in their late-20s.


Putting him in the same category as Michael Owen who really was done by his late 20s is off.


Yes. He was in his late-20s after the 2014 season, so I'm not sure where in the semantics did I march wrong.


It's not semantics if your contradicting yourself and getting facts wrong. You denied saying he was done, I pulled the quote up and you're contradicting yourself again. Ceac won 2 league titles, a league Cup and FA Cup after 2014 and in his late 20s. If that's 'done' then it's really time to give up the ghost on some of our aging stars.

Also, Owen was playing for Newcastle in his late 20s and his body was wrecked by injuries.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Angelito » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Looking at the exact quote.

They were pretty much done by the time they were in their late-20s.


Putting him in the same category as Michael Owen who really was done by his late 20s is off.


Yes. He was in his late-20s after the 2014 season, so I'm not sure where in the semantics did I march wrong.


It's not semantics if your contradicting yourself and getting facts wrong. You denied saying he was done, I pulled the quote up and you're contradicting yourself again. Ceac won 2 league titles, a league Cup and FA Cup after 2014 and in his late 20s. If that's 'done' then it's really time to give up the ghost on some of our aging stars.

Also, Owen was playing for Newcastle in his late 20s and his body was wrecked by injuries.


He didn't play a significant role in Conte's side. He played a mere ~ 1400 minutes.

I'm not sure why you're getting itchy.

He barely played a role in their title win in 16/17. Your "pulled up" quote was about Cesc being done is his late 20s. I never said that Cesc was done in 12/13. I simply said he was past his prime.

I'm not sure why we're having this debate.
Here's what I said:

Angelito wrote:Agree with you guys. Those who peak early tend to fade away quickly. That's what happened with Cesc.

It's amazing that Cesc was actually past his prime by 12/13. And, Rooney went downhill from 14/15. Cesc was 25/26. Rooney was 29.

It's even weirder in Cesc and Owen's cases. They were pretty much done by the time they were in their late-20s.


So, the quote you "pulled out," was out of your own misconception.

I rate Cesc a lot higher than most people do. He was a rival of Xavi when he was at Arsenal. At Barca, he ended up acting as Messi's assistant, or a winger. Please don't tell me you watched him at Barca. I did. I know his worth.

His last hurrah was the 14/15 season. After that, he was never the same. That qualifies as being done in his late 20s.

Not sure what the whole fuss is. You like and appreciate Cesc, that's fine.

There's no reason to be passive aggressive. Cesc peaked in 12/13. That's a fact. He was never considered an elite talent after he left Arsenal. Also, a fact.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Power n Glory » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:44 pm

16/17 Cesc scored 7 with 15 assists. Conte wasn't a major fan of Cesc but he played his part and they won the league despite having to fight for his place. The following season he started way more games. Only 3 goals and 9 assists but far from done.

Now bear in mind Ozil in 16/17 scored 12 goals with 14 assists but played almost twice as many minutes. That should at least put things in perspective.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Angelito » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:16 pm

Power n Glory wrote:16/17 Cesc scored 7 with 15 assists. Conte wasn't a major fan of Cesc but he played his part and they won the league despite having to fight for his place. The following season he started way more games. Only 3 goals and 9 assists but far from done.

Now bear in mind Ozil in 16/17 scored 12 goals with 14 assists but played almost twice as many minutes. That should at least put things in perspective.


The Ozil argument is simply strawman. Ozil started more because he was our second best player in 16/17. Cesc didn't play as much because there used to be a joke around that he ran like he had a fridge on his back.

Physically, Cesc was shot by then. He still had the vision, which is a testament to his abilities in his prime. Iirc, he mostly played in the final games of the season and came off the bench to notch those assists in 16/17.

In a similar situation, Theo scored 19 goals in 16/17 for us. We wouldn't be praising those numbers, as impressive as they are, because we were aware that Theo was more or less done physically. He wasn't the same Walcott and hasn't been since the injury against Spurs in the FA Cup.

That's the thing with stats. I maintain that Cesc was past his best by 12/13 and he was done physically by 2015. More or less.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Marsbar100 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:22 pm

Cesc has more assists than ozil from 14 onwards in the pl, put into perspective he was in a defensive team under maureen, he played deeper than ozil with less flexibility m

If you take ozils great half a season out he was as getting out assisted and scored by Ramsey and Cazorla times.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Power n Glory » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:26 pm

Cesc has always been one of the slowest players in any team. He used to run like a turtle at Arsenal. The being done physically argument is pretty strawman because he's always had those limitations so I'm not sure about that argument.

It still doesn't address the fact that he was still capable of scoring and assisting. It's not easy to ignore the numbers and it definitely kills any argument of him not contributing to that second title win. He finished the season with the most assists in the league for Chelsea so it's pretty silly to downplay his contribution.

The following season he practically doubled his playing time and made 54 appearances despite being one of the oldest players in the team.

The Ozil comparison is applicable because you have two examples of playmakers that are weak physically having to deal with an evolving game and managers that prefer more physical players.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Marsbar100 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:19 pm

We should buy him
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Ach » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:11 pm

Hasn't he retired? Done f all for 8 years bar a good few months when he first went to Chelsea then disappeared after Xmas.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby swipe right » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:23 am

Fans have ranked Barcelona's 30 greatest players and Cesc isn’t among them. Doubt he’d make their top 100. So much for glory at Barca.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Angelito » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:00 pm

Marsbar100 wrote:Cesc has more assists than ozil from 14 onwards in the pl, put into perspective he was in a defensive team under maureen, he played deeper than ozil with less flexibility m

If you take ozils great half a season out he was as getting out assisted and scored by Ramsey and Cazorla times.


Ozil has a total of 60 assists and 36 goals since 14/15.

Cesc had a total of 59 assists and 22 goals.

Using your logic, Ozil played for an inferior side, under inferior managers. Do you want me to bring Ozil's assist record when they were at Spain or for their national teams on the table too? ;)

Regardless, this isn't a Ozil vs Cesc issue. I was afraid it would turn into one once the argument commenced.

This also pretty much counters Power's argument.

That said, the original argument was about Cesc being done by his late 20s. I haven't seen a point against that argument yet. I don't think anyone can deny that. It's fine to appreciate the man. But he was pretty much on his last legs by 2015; by 2016 at the latest.

Much ado about nothing.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Power n Glory » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:25 pm

Angelito wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Cesc has more assists than ozil from 14 onwards in the pl, put into perspective he was in a defensive team under maureen, he played deeper than ozil with less flexibility m

If you take ozils great half a season out he was as getting out assisted and scored by Ramsey and Cazorla times.


Ozil has a total of 60 assists and 36 goals since 14/15.

Cesc had a total of 59 assists and 22 goals.

Using your logic, Ozil played for an inferior side, under inferior managers. Do you want me to bring Ozil's assist record when they were at Spain or for their national teams on the table too? ;)

Regardless, this isn't a Ozil vs Cesc issue. I was afraid it would turn into one once the argument commenced.

This also pretty much counters Power's argument.

That said, the original argument was about Cesc being done by his late 20s. I haven't seen a point against that argument yet.
I don't think anyone can deny that. It's fine to appreciate the man. But he was pretty much on his last legs by 2015; by 2016 at the latest.

Much ado about nothing.


I've answered this but you've either missed or ignored it.

He didn't play a significant role in Conte's side. He played a mere ~ 1400 minutes.


It still doesn't address the fact that he was still capable of scoring and assisting. It's not easy to ignore the numbers and it definitely kills any argument of him not contributing to that second title win. He finished the season with the most assists in the league for Chelsea so it's pretty silly to downplay his contribution.


Cesc was 29 when he lead Chelsea in assists the last time Chelsea won a title. That's more assists than Sanchez and Ozil that same year.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:51 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Cesc has more assists than ozil from 14 onwards in the pl, put into perspective he was in a defensive team under maureen, he played deeper than ozil with less flexibility m

If you take ozils great half a season out he was as getting out assisted and scored by Ramsey and Cazorla times.


Ozil has a total of 60 assists and 36 goals since 14/15.

Cesc had a total of 59 assists and 22 goals.

Using your logic, Ozil played for an inferior side, under inferior managers. Do you want me to bring Ozil's assist record when they were at Spain or for their national teams on the table too? ;)

Regardless, this isn't a Ozil vs Cesc issue. I was afraid it would turn into one once the argument commenced.

This also pretty much counters Power's argument.

That said, the original argument was about Cesc being done by his late 20s. I haven't seen a point against that argument yet.
I don't think anyone can deny that. It's fine to appreciate the man. But he was pretty much on his last legs by 2015; by 2016 at the latest.

Much ado about nothing.


I've answered this but you've either missed or ignored it.

He didn't play a significant role in Conte's side. He played a mere ~ 1400 minutes.


It still doesn't address the fact that he was still capable of scoring and assisting. It's not easy to ignore the numbers and it definitely kills any argument of him not contributing to that second title win. He finished the season with the most assists in the league for Chelsea so it's pretty silly to downplay his contribution.


Cesc was 29 when he lead Chelsea in assists the last time Chelsea won a title. That's more assists than Sanchez and Ozil that same year.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Angelito » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:57 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:Cesc has more assists than ozil from 14 onwards in the pl, put into perspective he was in a defensive team under maureen, he played deeper than ozil with less flexibility m

If you take ozils great half a season out he was as getting out assisted and scored by Ramsey and Cazorla times.


Ozil has a total of 60 assists and 36 goals since 14/15.

Cesc had a total of 59 assists and 22 goals.

Using your logic, Ozil played for an inferior side, under inferior managers. Do you want me to bring Ozil's assist record when they were at Spain or for their national teams on the table too? ;)

Regardless, this isn't a Ozil vs Cesc issue. I was afraid it would turn into one once the argument commenced.

This also pretty much counters Power's argument.

That said, the original argument was about Cesc being done by his late 20s. I haven't seen a point against that argument yet.
I don't think anyone can deny that. It's fine to appreciate the man. But he was pretty much on his last legs by 2015; by 2016 at the latest.

Much ado about nothing.


I've answered this but you've either missed or ignored it.

He didn't play a significant role in Conte's side. He played a mere ~ 1400 minutes.


It still doesn't address the fact that he was still capable of scoring and assisting. It's not easy to ignore the numbers and it definitely kills any argument of him not contributing to that second title win. He finished the season with the most assists in the league for Chelsea so it's pretty silly to downplay his contribution.


Cesc was 29 when he lead Chelsea in assists the last time Chelsea won a title. That's more assists than Sanchez and Ozil that same year.


Cesc was 26 when 14/15 started. That was his final season as a top performer.

In Conte's first season, where he played less than 1,400 mins, Cesc was 28.

In the same season, Ozil scored and created 17 goals in the Prem. I won't even talk about Alexis because it'd be shameful.

Even by that standard, he was done by 28.. That still counts. The whole debate is about Cesc being done by his late-20s because he peaked early. That still stands. Like many who peak early, Cesc was done by his late 20s.

Ronaldo is on the same boat. The Brazilian Ronaldo. Some peak early and for various reasons fade early. Cesc was part of the who's who when he was at Arsenal. Since then, he was never part of any such list.

It's obvious. We can go round and round until we can't.
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Re: Cesc Fabregas

Postby Power n Glory » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:18 pm

@TonyAdams...Costa (22) and Hazard (17) were Chelsea's top scorers. After that it's Pedro with 13 and Willian 12.

Arsenal - Sanchez scored 30 goals. Walcott 19. Giroud 16. Ozil 12 himself.

We had goal scorers in the team and those aren't shabby numbers. Sanchez was on fire that year.

Bear in mind, the argument is that Cesc was finished at 29. So why not take a look at what Ozil was doing at 29 with Auba and Laca in the team? When that conversation comes up and you look at the fact that he managed 3 assists, what does that say about Ozil?
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