Goonersworld

Plymouth Gooner wrote:The problem is, as much as he has improved, Rambo is still the weak link in midfield.

No he isn't. He's the best in the box-to-box role in our squad and has better vision than Wilshere. He should be a permanent fixture for the start of our campaign and out of the pre-season games is one of few who look fit enough for August 17th.

Giroud, for all his lack of worldclassness, can do a job without it costing us.

We won't win anything with Giroud, we could with Ramsey. Our biggest problem is lack of conviction in the final third, Ramsey does his job very well and that seems to be a rarity in our starting 11.

When Ramsey gives the ball away

Lol

Ramsey dispossessed 1.2 times per game
Fellaini dispossessed 2.4 times per game

Ramsey 83.42 passes per game (2nd highest in Prem), 74.21 successful passes (2nd highest in Prem), 104.14 touchers per game (highest in prem, only player in triple figures).

But Ramsey gives the ball away, right?

or loses a physical battle it puts the defence under unnecessary pressure.

Not once in his run with Arteta last season did we get outmuscled. Lazy cliché used by people who don't watch us enough

There are plenty of more physical players out there who can protect the back four better, but who are also more technical and don't give the ball away as much.

Name them

Leody wrote:

Hans Gruber wrote:

gooney wrote:Ramsey represent everything the new Arsenal stands for.....AVERAGE

You can't have a team of 11 world class players, you need some workers too. He's an average footballer, but his effort is second to none.

Henry
Bergkamp
Pires
Gilberto (WAY better than Ramsey)
Vieira
Ljungberg
Cole
Toure
Campbell
Lauren
Lehmann

You have a hard time arguing any more than 3 of them weren't world class at the time. Now we don't have 3 world class players total at the club...

Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires and Henry were world class in 03/04. Either way, no point comparing us to that team anyway as no current PL team comes close to the invincibles. If your problem is lack of world class players, we have far more pressing areas before we look to displace someone who is actually doing their job extremely well.

Massa wrote:

Plymouth Gooner wrote:The problem is, as much as he has improved, Rambo is still the weak link in midfield.

No he isn't. He's the best in the box-to-box role in our squad and has better vision than Wilshere. He should be a permanent fixture for the start of our campaign and out of the pre-season games is one of few who look fit enough for August 17th.

Giroud, for all his lack of worldclassness, can do a job without it costing us.

We won't win anything with Giroud, we could with Ramsey. Our biggest problem is lack of conviction in the final third, Ramsey does his job very well and that seems to be a rarity in our starting 11.

When Ramsey gives the ball away

Lol

Ramsey dispossessed 1.2 times per game
Fellaini dispossessed 2.4 times per game

Ramsey 83.42 passes per game (2nd highest in Prem), 74.21 successful passes (2nd highest in Prem), 104.14 touchers per game (highest in prem, only player in triple figures).

But Ramsey gives the ball away, right?

or loses a physical battle it puts the defence under unnecessary pressure.

Not once in his run with Arteta last season did we get outmuscled. Lazy cliché used by people who don't watch us enough

There are plenty of more physical players out there who can protect the back four better, but who are also more technical and don't give the ball away as much.

Name them

Ramsey is surrounded by quality players, Fellaini isn't, so to compare their stats is pointless.

Ramsey is the weak link in midfield, that is my opinion, he has improved, but unless he does a Flamini/Song (which isn't impossible) he isn't good enough to start for AFC. We at least need a signing to put pressure on him. At present I'd take a Capoue/Wanyama type over Ramsey any day. I don't care what anyone says about us needing technical players, none of these are any less technical than Ramsey. I stand by my claim that Fellaini would be my first choice signing this summer and I'd be happy if we signed him and no strikers.

Last season there were times when Gervinho played up front as a last resort. Now Sanogo is the last resort and I see that as progress.

Last season in midfield we found that whilst Arteta and Wilshere are both talented, they don't work together. For that reason we at least need someone to cover Ramsey. I say we sign someone better than him and make him a squad player, thats what a top club would do - I get that it isn't the Wenger way though and for that reason I'd be happy with a Ginter type to compete with Ramsey rather than replace him.

I don't think we can win the league with Ramsey, Arteta and Wilshere (and Diaby LOL) as our only options for the two CM places.

Massa wrote:

Leody wrote:

Hans Gruber wrote:

gooney wrote:Ramsey represent everything the new Arsenal stands for.....AVERAGE

You can't have a team of 11 world class players, you need some workers too. He's an average footballer, but his effort is second to none.

Henry
Bergkamp
Pires
Gilberto (WAY better than Ramsey)
Vieira
Ljungberg
Cole
Toure
Campbell
Lauren
Lehmann

You have a hard time arguing any more than 3 of them weren't world class at the time. Now we don't have 3 world class players total at the club...

Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires and Henry were world class in 03/04. Either way, no point comparing us to that team anyway as no current PL team comes close to the invincibles. If your problem is lack of world class players, we have far more pressing areas before we look to displace someone who is actually doing their job extremely well.

He said you can't build a team of 11 world class players. That's why I said that. Not getting into a debate about then and now, not my intent.

But to say you can't build a squad with 11 world class players is just plain nonsense. It has been done, is being done now and will be done again.

Barca probably have 11 world class players in just their mid/atk...

Plymouth Gooner wrote:Ramsey is surrounded by quality players, Fellaini isn't, so to compare their stats is pointless.

This is why I only compared them in dispossession stats as that usually doesn't have anything to do with your team mates does it? You've completely ignored his passing stats which are bettered only by Arteta in the whole of the PL. To say he gives the ball away is a lazy observation and you're just making things up.

Ramsey is the weak link in midfield, that is my opinion, he has improved, but unless he does a Flamini/Song (which isn't impossible) he isn't good enough to start for AFC.

What about him makes him so weak? He can pass short & long, he is energetic and wins possession high up the pitch as a result, he's better defensively than Jack and he is composed on the ball. No-one executes the role better than him in our squad so to go as far as saying he is the weak link is baffling imo.

We at least need a signing to put pressure on him. At present I'd take a Capoue/Wanyama type over Ramsey any day. I don't care what anyone says about us needing technical players, none of these are any less technical than Ramsey.

Yes they are. You haven't seen either of them play so how can you make that claim?

I stand by my claim that Fellaini would be my first choice signing this summer and I'd be happy if we signed him and no strikers. Last season there were times when Gervinho played up front as a last resort. Now Sanogo is the last resort and I see that as progress.

Our problem last season was clearly in the final third, signing a DM to displace a proven player in our system will do little good and could even end up backfiring. Strange opinion.

Last season in midfield we found that whilst Arteta and Wilshere are both talented, they don't work together. For that reason we at least need someone to cover Ramsey. I say we sign someone better than him and make him a squad player, thats what a top club would do - I get that it isn't the Wenger way though and for that reason I'd be happy with a Ginter type to compete with Ramsey rather than replace him.

We could do with some cover, I can agree with you on that

Leody wrote:

Massa wrote:

Leody wrote:

Hans Gruber wrote:

gooney wrote:Ramsey represent everything the new Arsenal stands for.....AVERAGE

You can't have a team of 11 world class players, you need some workers too. He's an average footballer, but his effort is second to none.

Henry
Bergkamp
Pires
Gilberto (WAY better than Ramsey)
Vieira
Ljungberg
Cole
Toure
Campbell
Lauren
Lehmann

You have a hard time arguing any more than 3 of them weren't world class at the time. Now we don't have 3 world class players total at the club...

Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires and Henry were world class in 03/04. Either way, no point comparing us to that team anyway as no current PL team comes close to the invincibles. If your problem is lack of world class players, we have far more pressing areas before we look to displace someone who is actually doing their job extremely well.

He said you can't build a team of 11 world class players. That's why I said that. Not getting into a debate about then and now, not my intent.

But to say you can't build a squad with 11 world class players is just plain nonsense. It has been done, is being done now and will be done again.

Barca probably have 11 world class players in just their mid/atk...

Barca do not have a world class 11. Already considered them, Bayern and Real.

Do you know how expensive it would be to make a world class 11.

That's your opinion of the players...

Leody wrote:

Massa wrote:

Leody wrote:

Hans Gruber wrote:

gooney wrote:Ramsey represent everything the new Arsenal stands for.....AVERAGE

You can't have a team of 11 world class players, you need some workers too. He's an average footballer, but his effort is second to none.

Henry
Bergkamp
Pires
Gilberto (WAY better than Ramsey)
Vieira
Ljungberg
Cole
Toure
Campbell
Lauren
Lehmann

You have a hard time arguing any more than 3 of them weren't world class at the time. Now we don't have 3 world class players total at the club...

Campbell, Cole, Vieira, Pires and Henry were world class in 03/04. Either way, no point comparing us to that team anyway as no current PL team comes close to the invincibles. If your problem is lack of world class players, we have far more pressing areas before we look to displace someone who is actually doing their job extremely well.

He said you can't build a team of 11 world class players. That's why I said that. Not getting into a debate about then and now, not my intent.

But to say you can't build a squad with 11 world class players is just plain nonsense. It has been done, is being done now and will be done again.

Barca probably have 11 world class players in just their mid/atk...

That isn't a team of 11 world class players though, you wouldn't say Lauren was world class for example. Only 2/5 of Barca's defence are world class. The closest team I can think of to a world class 11 is probably Bayern:



Still not quite there yet though. I can't think of any team that has done it contrary to what you have said.

I'm not getting into another "worldclass" debate. It's an undefinable and completely subjective term. What's worldclass to one isn't to another.

Leody wrote:That's your opinion of the players...

OK, lets go.

Valdes is shit
Alves is arguably world class, he's a world class cheat at least
Piquet is frightfully average
Mascherano is good, not WC
Alba can't defend, so he can't be WC
Busquets is WC
Xavi is WC
Iniesta is WC
Pedro isn't WC
Messi is WC
Sanchez isn't WC

Leody wrote:I'm not getting into another "worldclass" debate. It's an undefinable and completely subjective term. What's worldclass to one isn't to another.

↑↑See above↑↑

If you want to gloat and say you won, go ahead, I don't care.

Leody wrote:

Leody wrote:I'm not getting into another "worldclass" debate. It's an undefinable and completely subjective term. What's worldclass to one isn't to another.

↑↑See above↑↑

If you want to gloat and say you won, go ahead, I don't care.

I won

Leody wrote:

Massa wrote:Wilshere can't score/pass nearly as well as he needs to play in the #10 role

That's the predicament, I didn't say he was a CAM, I said similar, but as for all the problems I listed he's not a battling midfielder either.

Quite frankly until he get's back to full form I don't know where he should play atm.

Ramsey had the same problem, he was tried in CM a few times and didn't look up to it probably because he'd been played as a CAM for so long, but then last season it just clicked and there you have it.

I think the same could happen for Wilshere but not 100% sure yet.