The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

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The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Zedie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:24 pm

Thought it was time to put a stop to the biggest threadjack in GW history (see the Wenger/Bould thread) and start a new thread where we can debate any dodgy decisions in football, Arsenal related or not.

Ill kick off with that Cazorla penalty from last week and the one we (imo) didnt deserve to be given this week.


greengoonerie wrote:I appreciate that this may be a complete waste of time as Zedie has his own interpretation of Hand ball.

However, i pulled this from the Wikipedia site here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foul_(association_football)

It's to do with Hand Ball

Handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area).

In determining whether or not a player deliberately handled the ball, the referee has several considerations:

Movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
Distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
Position of the hand ('natural' position versus 'unnatural' position) does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement
Touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement
Hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement


NOWHERE does it say that protecting yourself is to be considered as grounds NOT to call a foul.

It was a penalty.


First off, I usually don't go by what Wikipedia says because it's open to abuse by any old random (not saying you would do this btw! But you get my drift, it's probs best to check what the refs handbook says about it).

Regardless, I'll answer it from my perspective.

Movement of hands towards ball (not ball to hand):

On my phone so copy pasting is a pain but for me, cazorla moved his hands to shield his face from a ball coming right at him from 2ft away or so. His hands weren't going towards the ball but to his face palms inward. In that situation, if it was hand to ball his hands would have been moving away from his face, towards the ball.

Therefore, my interpretation of the above is that it was a clear case of ball to hand. If you watch it again and can describe how this was a clear case of hand to ball, we can defo agree to disagree!

Distance of ball to hand (unexpected ball):

Debatable. Cazorla could reasonably expect the ball into his general direction, but could not reasonably expect it to becoming at him square in the face, especially given the time it took for the ball to travel from foot to face. Not sure on that one, but could be argued.

Natural position of the hand:

Can we agree that humans have a natural reflex to cover them themselves at the threat of imminent pain? If yes, then this point alone can be used to say its not a pen. If something is coming for your face, your going to flinch, your arms will do it out of instinct before you really have a chance o consciously register the danger and take action. If you don't believe me, tell a mate to aim a swing near your face when you for expect it and you'll get what I mean!

It's a natural reaction. If you don't think it's in anyway natural, again, we won't be able to agree and the dead horse would have been flogged as they say.

Essentially, if none of the above points were taken into consideration, any contact of ball to hand by an outfield player, seen by the ref, would be a foul and we both know that isn't the case.

I would defo agree that it doesn't spell out exactly every scenario that could lead to a handball foul or a handball not being given, but the rules you posted give enough guidance to be able to interpret different situations.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby greengoonerie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:52 pm

Yawn. It was a penalty.

If he had kept his hands down by his side the ball would have hit his face.
if he had moved his head, the ball would have been crossed into the box.
He chose to move his hands to protect his face and the ball hit his hands.

Penalty.

Flog away!!!

Our penalty vs Fulham was a very harsh one! The guys arm was moving backwards when the balll hit it IMO. Ball to hand. No penalty.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Zedie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:08 pm

greengoonerie wrote:Yawn. It was a penalty.

If he had kept his hands down by his side the ball would have hit his face.
if he had moved his head, the ball would have been crossed into the box.
He chose to move his hands to protect his face and the ball hit his hands.
Penalty.

Flog away!!!

Our penalty vs Fulham was a very harsh one! The guys arm was moving backwards when the balll hit it IMO. Ball to hand. No penalty.



Ball to hand! Going by the rules, its not a pen which is partially what ive been trying to get at since this started.

Regarding the movement of his hands to his face, id consider that a natural reaction as ive previously mentioned and i dont think the distance and power of the shot would have given him enough time to think about it, he just protected his face as is a natural eaction to something coming towards your face.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Yorkyblue » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:20 pm

Someone needs a gif or video of it. I'm surprised it hasn't been posted in the other thread with someone trying to use it as evidence. I've still not seen it either!
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Zedie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:23 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:Someone needs a gif or video of it. I'm surprised it hasn't been posted in the other thread with someone trying to use it as evidence. I've still not seen it either!


I would, but i dont know where to find GIFS of specific football related stuff. Cyn usually pops up with one or two but he seems to be slacking! Get it together Cyn....
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Maxduke » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:12 pm

Can't find a GIF of it but at around 9:35 on this video you see the penalty you were awarded with a few replays, to me this isn't a penalty.

http://rutube.ru/video/71f0bfb85404e924 ... KEC94ftRc4

What game was the Cazorla one in?

I'll post this really, really close debatable offside decision from the Middlesbrough game the other night, the goal stood.

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The guy jumping knocks it down for the guy that is clearly onside. :rolleyes:
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Yorkyblue » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:16 pm

That's shocking is that one against Fulham. :lol:

His arm was by his body moving backwards. If anything he was putting his arm behind his back while keeping it straight down and by his body.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Maxduke » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:18 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:That's shocking is that one against Fulham. :lol:

His arm was by his body moving backwards. If anything he was putting his arm behind his back while keeping it straight down and by his body.


He basically did everything the ref would tell him to do to avoid a penalty. :lol:
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Zedie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:30 pm

Maxduke wrote:Can't find a GIF of it but at around 9:35 on this video you see the penalty you were awarded with a few replays, to me this isn't a penalty.

http://rutube.ru/video/71f0bfb85404e924 ... KEC94ftRc4

What game was the Cazorla one in?

I'll post this really, really close debatable offside decision from the Middlesbrough game the other night, the goal stood.

Image

The guy jumping knocks it down for the guy that is clearly onside. :rolleyes:


The caz one was from the manure game...

Re that image. Well trolled Lino, well trolled. I bet someone got booked for protesting that as well afterwards.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby greengoonerie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:35 pm

Zedie wrote:
greengoonerie wrote:Yawn. It was a penalty.

If he had kept his hands down by his side the ball would have hit his face.
if he had moved his head, the ball would have been crossed into the box.
He chose to move his hands to protect his face and the ball hit his hands.
Penalty.

Flog away!!!

Our penalty vs Fulham was a very harsh one! The guys arm was moving backwards when the balll hit it IMO. Ball to hand. No penalty.



Ball to hand! Going by the rules, its not a pen which is partially what ive been trying to get at since this started.

Regarding the movement of his hands to his face, id consider that a natural reaction as ive previously mentioned and i dont think the distance and power of the shot would have given him enough time to think about it, he just protected his face as is a natural eaction to something coming towards your face.

Are you really that thick???

:BangHead: :BangHead:

AFAICS, you're the only person here who thinks Cazorlas hand ball wasn't a a peno. Good luck to you. I didn't hijack the thread - you did. you said it wasnt a penalty. I disabused you of that fallacy.

As for the Fulham match, well again, I didn't think it was a peno. You did. Good luck.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby TheArsenalPost » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:37 pm

Cazorla - Clear pen.

Fulham - Not a pen.

Neither converted.

My work here is done.
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby greengoonerie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:41 pm

TheArsenalPost wrote:Cazorla - Clear pen.

Fulham - Not a pen.

Neither converted.

My work here is done.

:rofll: :rofll: :rofll:

....so YOU are my second account here... :rofll: -
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby TheArsenalPost » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:43 pm

Damn. Now everyone knows we are frauds.

(What second account?) :D
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby Dejan » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:47 pm

might aswell change the topic title to the man united thread
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Re: The Penalty/Rogue Ref/Dodgy Decisions thread

Postby CynicalGooner » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:48 pm

The one against Fulham should not have been a pen but it's not the worst decision you'll ever see. His arm was sticking out so you can at least see a case for it.

I suspect this thread will quickly turn into tracking how many points Man U are given by refs from now til the end of the season. Should have been tracking it a long time ago really
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