Nuno Tavares (20)

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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby Est83 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:33 am

KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:09 pm

Should NEVER have been in the first team setup in the first place, a back up full back in Portugal and we threw him in straight to our first team. Fine to buy him, should have gone on loan to learn the trade then come to us. We had no choice because Arteta thought it would be smart to loan/give all of our backup players away.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:43 pm

Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby KG3 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:23 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.


Ferguson was still winning trophies with 4-4-2 when practically every other team was using
4-2-3-1/4-3-3, then you have Leicester who won the league in 15-16 using 4-4-2

No BPL team (or at least the big 6) were using 3-4-3 years ago then conte came in and implemented the system, winning the league during his first season in 16/17

Liverpool and city could change to 4-4-2 next season and they’d still finish comfortably above everyone else

Point is the formation is irrelevant, any formation is a winning one with the right manager, players and tactics
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby DiamondGooner » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:33 am

KG3 wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.


Ferguson was still winning trophies with 4-4-2 when practically every other team was using
4-2-3-1/4-3-3, then you have Leicester who won the league in 15-16 using 4-4-2

Point is the formation is irrelevant, any formation is a winning one with the right players and tactics


I used to champion that same notion but the fact is there is a reason why every top team is using 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 now.

They are more flexible, allow for possession or pressure and you can choose from a variety of strikers, you don't need just one type, your also fielding 3 attackers in both set ups meaning your not weakening your offense.

Yes you can win with 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 but over the course of a season, the other two formations are winning out and the results are there for people to see.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby EliteKiller » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:37 am

DiamondGooner wrote:I used to champion that same notion but the fact is there is a reason why every top team is using 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 now.

They are more flexible, allow for possession or pressure and you can choose from a variety of strikers, you don't need just one type, your also fielding 3 attackers in both set ups meaning your not weakening your offense.

Yes you can win with 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 but over the course of a season, the other two formations are winning out and the results are there for people to see.


A good/great team can play any formation, if you watch Pep and Conte they may well have a preferred line up but that line up 4-4-2 or 3-5-1-1 or 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 will be dependant on who they are playing. Playing against a pressing team versus playing against a parked bus are very different. The reason Klopp fails more in the big games is his lack of flexibility.

I think City will now play 4-1-2-2-1 with just one holding DM and Haaland up front, but you could call that 4-3-3. Conte will go 3-4-3 or 5-2-3 depends if you count wing backs as defenders or midfield, same thing really. But I would equally guess that both sides will use multiple formations and tactics based on who they are playing - that's where top managers earn the big bucks.

Interesting last season that Spurs, with less player quality, needed 3/4 days to prepare for games and a change in playing style. City just switch at will and Liverpool play pretty much the same every week, that's a weakness Klopp needs to fix.

The very best teams know that they will face a packed defence most weeks so whilst it appears they always play the same way that's by necessity. We however often face teams who will attack out wide (Liverpool, Spurs, etc) or through the middle (City, Brighton, Newcastle) or indeed the bus parkers. That requires a greater amount of tactical flexibility and a squad who can vary their style - last season Arteta lacked the experience, the squad lacked quality alternatives, we got caught out playing the wrong tactics.

Hate to big up Spurs but we are now where they have been for 30 years, playing catch up - have they finally fixed it? Top manager? adding quality players? I rather fear they might have, but let's hope not.

We need Arteta to think outside his tiny box, and we need 6/7 more (not replacement) quality players. Will we do that? It took Levy 20 years to open the cheque book fully, the Kroenke's need to do it now.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:52 am

KG3 wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.


Ferguson was still winning trophies with 4-4-2 when practically every other team was using
4-2-3-1/4-3-3, then you have Leicester who won the league in 15-16 using 4-4-2

No BPL team (or at least the big 6) were using 3-4-3 years ago then conte came in and implemented the system, winning the league during his first season in 16/17

Liverpool and city could change to 4-4-2 next season and they’d still finish comfortably above everyone else

Point is the formation is irrelevant, any formation is a winning one with the right manager, players and tactics

I agree with this, there is no "best/better" formation than another, its down to philosophy and implementation of the chosen formation. If you have top players or a group of players well drilled with a specific formation so much so that they overwhelm others teams/formations its down to the implementation of said formation and the personnel.

There is of course the theory behind formations, overloading a specific area, for example, nullifying another formation, but in reality it doesn't always work like that, football is not played on paper or a tactics board.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:01 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
KG3 wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.


Ferguson was still winning trophies with 4-4-2 when practically every other team was using
4-2-3-1/4-3-3, then you have Leicester who won the league in 15-16 using 4-4-2

Point is the formation is irrelevant, any formation is a winning one with the right players and tactics


I used to champion that same notion but the fact is there is a reason why every top team is using 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 now.

They are more flexible, allow for possession or pressure and you can choose from a variety of strikers, you don't need just one type, your also fielding 3 attackers in both set ups meaning your not weakening your offense.

Yes you can win with 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 but over the course of a season, the other two formations are winning out and the results are there for people to see.

The other formations are winning because numbers-wise most teams are playing with those formations, the law of averages.

I said before, its down to the implementation of a formation. Playing a 4-4-2 doesn't have to require a big target man if you don't plan to sling crosses in, for example. If your 2 wide men are of a Pires/Saka mould they are looking to get shots off not crosses, so they could act like 2 strikers, the 2 up top could be a number 10 for creativity in the middle/floating and the other a striker that links up with the no10.

There are so many ways to be creative with EVERY formation, 4-4-2 isn't inflexible at all. You could play with a single holding midfielder or have both CMs hold - you still have potentially 4 attackers. You could have the CMs alternate going forward and staying back, 2 old school box to box midfielders, thats my game right there - one goes ... one sits. Then you have the 2 full backs, they can tuck in and become a 3 at the back if needed or they can play as wing backs, they can come into the midfield to fill a gap on occasions, as we saw AMN do for a while.

the options to implement 4-4-2 in a plethora of ways are there, its not the agricultural "meat and 2 veg" formation people think it is.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:31 am

theHotHead wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
KG3 wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
Est83 wrote:
KG3 wrote:He’s just one of those fullbacks that’s never going to be solid in back 4 but in a 5 he’d work out well or even convert to LW


Agreed... and the fact that we're still being linked with CBs, even with Saliba, Gabi and White (what a back 3!), it seems like we'll probably get to see him in that role.


Arteta made no signs towards the end of last year that he's moving to a 3-4-3.

If anything he bunkered down on his hapless, 4-2-3-1.

If he does change the formation however to a 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (like every other top 4 team in Europe are using) then that'll be a good sign for me that he's learned something ...........

Yet saying all that I fully expect a 4-2-3-1 and to be utterly disappointed.


Ferguson was still winning trophies with 4-4-2 when practically every other team was using
4-2-3-1/4-3-3, then you have Leicester who won the league in 15-16 using 4-4-2

Point is the formation is irrelevant, any formation is a winning one with the right players and tactics


I used to champion that same notion but the fact is there is a reason why every top team is using 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 now.

They are more flexible, allow for possession or pressure and you can choose from a variety of strikers, you don't need just one type, your also fielding 3 attackers in both set ups meaning your not weakening your offense.

Yes you can win with 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 but over the course of a season, the other two formations are winning out and the results are there for people to see.

The other formations are winning because numbers-wise most teams are playing with those formations, the law of averages.

I said before, its down to the implementation of a formation. Playing a 4-4-2 doesn't have to require a big target man if you don't plan to sling crosses in, for example. If your 2 wide men are of a Pires/Saka mould they are looking to get shots off not crosses, so they could act like 2 strikers, the 2 up top could be a number 10 for creativity in the middle/floating and the other a striker that links up with the no10.

There are so many ways to be creative with EVERY formation, 4-4-2 isn't inflexible at all. You could play with a single holding midfielder or have both CMs hold - you still have potentially 4 attackers. You could have the CMs alternate going forward and staying back, 2 old school box to box midfielders, thats my game right there - one goes ... one sits. Then you have the 2 full backs, they can tuck in and become a 3 at the back if needed or they can play as wing backs, they can come into the midfield to fill a gap on occasions, as we saw AMN do for a while.

the options to implement 4-4-2 in a plethora of ways are there, its not the agricultural "meat and 2 veg" formation people think it is.


I think the shift away from 4-4-2 is that it's not good for possession, especially against formations with 3 midfielders, 4-4-2 is very "end to end" type of set up, your either full break attacking or your parking the bus.

3-4-3 which used to be abhored when it first showed up when Middlesborough used to play it as a 5-4-1 is now a very clever formation where you can use the WB's to cause over loads up and down the pitch, you can have 5 defenders, then 4 midfielders to 5 attackers, the 3 CB's can also push forward and pressure the midfield and scoop up any balls bouncing back toward the midfield ......... like what we did to Man Utd when Elneny and Partey bullied Utd.

4-3-3 also can be used in a number of ways, pressure by using the 3 CM's instead of 2 CM's, or as a skill based system.

Both have 3 attackers so your never lacking in that department, 4-3-3 basically chooses the extra midfielder while 3-4-3 chooses an extra CB but the flexibility all comes from the WB's, however they both out match a 4-4-2 across the line which is why so few teams use it.

Yes I still agree that any formation if done properly can win however again the trend toward 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 is for a reason, 4-4-2 is certainly weak if being used for possession.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby RowdyRoddyPoppins » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:14 pm

Potentially off on loan to Atalanta :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:44 pm

Good post DG.

So what then if we want to play a hybrid of possession and direct attacking footie?! Cos I think we should be looking more at that. There is no way we can take on City at their own game, with Pep managing them.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby DiamondGooner » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:56 am

theHotHead wrote:Good post DG.

So what then if we want to play a hybrid of possession and direct attacking footie?! Cos I think we should be looking more at that. There is no way we can take on City at their own game, with Pep managing them.


I'd say 4-3-3 is probably the best for that.

I like what Klopp did, as you say you don't want to play City at their own game but what Liverpool have done is played the same formation but with different tactics of pressure and hard attack, so the set up is the same but the tactics are quite different and have a different effect on the game.

For us possession is in our DNA whether that be a good or a bad thing I'm not sure, we also can't match the top 2 teams so 3-4-3 is a good way to handle the better quality of the top 2 which is why Spurs and Chelsea use it.

You actually see this a lot across Europe in their respective top 4's, top two teams play 4-3-3 having the best squads then 3rd and 4th often use 3-4-3 to have a slightly better defence to handle the top 1 & 2's quality.

I'd be happy with either formation, the 4-2-3-1 for me just isn't getting us there, I think the lone CF role is an issue and so is the 4 tiered set up which makes us slow on the break, most other formations have 3 tiers meaning you go defence - midfield - attack, in a 4-2-3-1 its defence - Deep mid - Advanced midfield - Striker ........ which causes our attacks to be slower as we're passing back and forth through the rank of our players.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby alexafc12 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:55 pm

Marseille interested in taking him on loan.

I'd rather see him go to a Premier League club tbh, but he's definitely not ready to be anywhere near our first team yet.

Would need to bring in Martinez / another back up first though.
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:04 pm

I don't want to see any of our players go on loan outside of the Prem, its pointless !
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Re: Nuno Tavares (20)

Postby DiamondGooner » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:16 pm

Apart from Tierney and Nuno do we have any other LB's because if not letting him go on loan is suicide.

Guy should never have been bought if that's the case.
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