Arteta Out

[CrimsonGunner11]

Wenger had Seaman, Dixon, Bould, Adams, Winterburn, Bergkamp, Wright, Overmars, Pires, Vieira, Petit, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann, Gilberto, Ljungberg and the entire invincibles squad at his disposal and won three league titles and four FA Cups in the ten years before the stadium move.

He underachieved given some of the players he had. Three titles in ten years, no European trophies and four FA Cups. He inherited that back four, Bergkamp and Wright and a team who had won a title five years previously.

In nine years George Graham won two league titles, an FA Cup, two League Cups and one CWC. He had inherited a team that hadn't won a title for 15 years.

Arteta is in more of a George Graham situation imo. Comparisons to Wenger are unfair.

Very good points

Context matters.

First things first and just to be clear, I never said Wenger never underachieved. I said his performed at or above expectations more times than he performed below expectations during his time at Arsenal, and that’s assuming my view of a reasonable fans perspective.

Secondly, let’s view the trophies won by Wenger and Graham another way because we should not forget how Wenger treats the league cup. Using your facts and based on trophy difficulty, one can say that Wenger won 7 major trophies in 10 years while Graham won 4 in 9 years. 7 major trophies in 10 years supports my claim that Wenger rarely ever underachieved.

In terms of European trophies, Graham won a version of the Europa league, a competition that Wenger is rarely ever in because he’s constantly playing in a higher tier competition where the competition level is superior. I don’t know what the competition was like back when Graham was managing but I have a feeling it pales in comparison to the competition Wenger was up against. Google the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, and Bayern Munich when Wenger was competing with these teams for a European trophy and most fans would be hard pressed to fault Wenger for not winning a European trophy.

Graham inheriting a team that did not win a title in 15 years compared to Wenger inheriting a team that did not win a title in 5 years is fair and a point I’d gladly give to Graham over Wenger.

WRT Arteta: saying that his situation is more like Graham than Wenger does not take away from my point that Arteta has been underwhelming for most of his time at Arsenal.

Beating Parma in the CWC final, who were the overwhelming favourites to win the game, was like Wenger beating one of the top teams of now, in my opinion. Serie A was the top league, Italian football was very defensive. PSG had beaten Real Madrid in the QFs, we beat Torino at the same stage, Parma beat Benfica who were European giants. In the Semis we beat PSG and Parma just edged out Benfica.

Parma had finished 3rd in the season before qualifying for the CWC, behind AC Milan and Inter, in the season of the CWC final they finished 5th, behind Milan, Juve, Samp and Lazio. Lets remind ourselves of some of the players they had (I love a bit of nostalgia), Luca Bucci in goal, Bennarrivo and Sensini in defence, Brolin, Zola and Asprilia in attack. Contrast that to our midfield/attack - Kevin Campbell, Steve Morrow, Alan Smith, Paul Merson, Ian Selley

How the f**k did we win that game !!!

Winning an European trophy is certainly not easy, especially the Champions League or it’s equivalent. The stars really do have to align in many cases.

Those that do win one should only be lauded. It’s an achievement that should not be taken lightly

[theHotHead]

So what would you do from here? I see lots of complaints on this format but not alot of ideas! I would give him another season, as I want to see how things play out with a striker suited to the style.

I don't think Arteta is the right manager to take us to where we need to be, the only attribute he has demonstrated he is capable of being is pragmatic. When he has been pragmatic we have done well, but his overall vision doesn't do it for me. I would replace him with any one of the better managers there are available, don't ask me to name them, you can pick anyone at random and they would be able to do at least as bad a job as he has done !!

If he stays he needs to demonstrate an understanding that one style does NOT fit all and stop with his foolhardy obsession of mimicking Pep ! There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, its one of the reasons I rate Conte, the guy realises he has made a mistake or that something is not working and he changes it one time, no faffing about.

Look at the 2016/17 season, Chelsea started well, won their first 3 games against teams they were expected to beat, then drew with Swansea, lost to Liverpool and got whopped by us. After the Arsenal loss he admitted he made mistakes and needed to change things ....... that led to a run of 13 straight wins that included thumping Man U, Man City, Everton, Stoke and beating Spurs.

[CrimsonGunner11]

Wenger had Seaman, Dixon, Bould, Adams, Winterburn, Bergkamp, Wright, Overmars, Pires, Vieira, Petit, Campbell, Cole, Lehmann, Gilberto, Ljungberg and the entire invincibles squad at his disposal and won three league titles and four FA Cups in the ten years before the stadium move.

He underachieved given some of the players he had. Three titles in ten years, no European trophies and four FA Cups. He inherited that back four, Bergkamp and Wright and a team who had won a title five years previously.

In nine years George Graham won two league titles, an FA Cup, two League Cups and one CWC. He had inherited a team that hadn't won a title for 15 years.

Arteta is in more of a George Graham situation imo. Comparisons to Wenger are unfair.

Very good points

Context matters.

First things first and just to be clear, I never said Wenger never underachieved. I said his performed at or above expectations more times than he performed below expectations during his time at Arsenal, and that’s assuming my view of a reasonable fans perspective.

Secondly, let’s view the trophies won by Wenger and Graham another way because we should not forget how Wenger treats the league cup. Using your facts and based on trophy difficulty, one can say that Wenger won 7 major trophies in 10 years while Graham won 4 in 9 years. 7 major trophies in 10 years supports my claim that Wenger rarely ever underachieved.

In terms of European trophies, Graham won a version of the Europa league, a competition that Wenger is rarely ever in because he’s constantly playing in a higher tier competition where the competition level is superior. I don’t know what the competition was like back when Graham was managing but I have a feeling it pales in comparison to the competition Wenger was up against. Google the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, and Bayern Munich when Wenger was competing with these teams for a European trophy and most fans would be hard pressed to fault Wenger for not winning a European trophy.

Graham inheriting a team that did not win a title in 15 years compared to Wenger inheriting a team that did not win a title in 5 years is fair and a point I’d gladly give to Graham over Wenger.

WRT Arteta: saying that his situation is more like Graham than Wenger does not take away from my point that Arteta has been underwhelming for most of his time at Arsenal.

Beating Parma in the CWC final, who were the overwhelming favourites to win the game, was like Wenger beating one of the top teams of now, in my opinion. Serie A was the top league, Italian football was very defensive. PSG had beaten Real Madrid in the QFs, we beat Torino at the same stage, Parma beat Benfica who were European giants. In the Semis we beat PSG and Parma just edged out Benfica.

Parma had finished 3rd in the season before qualifying for the CWC, behind AC Milan and Inter, in the season of the CWC final they finished 5th, behind Milan, Juve, Samp and Lazio. Lets remind ourselves of some of the players they had (I love a bit of nostalgia), Luca Bucci in goal, Bennarrivo and Sensini in defence, Brolin, Zola and Asprilia in attack. Contrast that to our midfield/attack - Kevin Campbell, Steve Morrow, Alan Smith, Paul Merson, Ian Selley

How the f**k did we win that game !!!

Winning an European trophy is certainly not easy, especially the Champions League or it’s equivalent. The stars really do have to align in many cases.

Those that do win one should only be lauded. It’s an achievement that should not be taken lightly

Also just want to put this out there because unless you’re an Arsenal fan it will be forgotten and that is that as far as I’m concerned Wenger may just as well have a CL trophy to his name.

The year we made it to CL finals with Wenger, we were robbed in my eyes. How anyone expects any team to beat a Barcelona side with the likes of Ronaldinho, Puyol, and Eto’o as well as challenging with only 10 men for the majority of the game is beyond me. We still only lost by one goal too.

As I said, Wenger may just as well have a CL trophy to his name. Don’t care what any books say.

[Ach]

Should've won it in 2004.

Lost to a team we beat 3 times that season already after drawing the first leg 1-1 at their ground so in the box seat but we choked.

Monaco and Porto made the final. Decent teams but neither were superpower clubs. Add in we win the CL and Jose never gets the Chelsea job.

Twas a major f**k up from us.

Even then you could see the frail Wenger mentality which went in to overdrive few years later

[Power n Glory]

At some point, we have to ease up on the mistakes Wenger made and what he didn't do. What he managed to achieve maybe as good as it gets for a very long time. No point in continuing to dump on our most successful period. I hold the same view for former legends that sometimes say stuff that's out of line.

[CrimsonGunner11]

At some point, we have to ease up on the mistakes Wenger made and what he didn't do. What he managed to achieve maybe as good as it gets for a very long time. No point in continuing to dump on our most successful period. I hold the same view for former legends that sometimes say stuff that's out of line.

Yes, let’s focus on how we can get back to where we need to be. I’ve already outlined what I would do in the next season’s objectives thread. Unfortunately I can’t see the suits in charge doing anything of note for next season. So you have to forgive some of us for looking back for our fix of good times in these times where a light at the end of the tunnel doesn’t exist.

[theHotHead]

There can be no doubt that when we look at the Good Wenger times we as Arsenal fans were in a wonderland, a dreamworld. Fans and pundits fawned over our attacking style of play, everyone wanted to be us, Man U wanted to play like us and get the plaudits we got that they never did !!!

[swipe right]

Imagine AW without the invincible side, for me i preferred GG, like i have said many times AW threw away more titles than he won.

Imagine Prince Charles without Queen Elizabeth. Oh wait you can’t.

[Ach]

Got to agree with swipey here.

When talking about Wenger, we can't just erase the invincibles

Likewise we can't just erase the absolute shit we suffered from 08-18

Both are there. If it happened the other way around and the shit years came first followed by the trophies he'd be seen as one of the goats. It didn't. Does this mean we see his legacy tainted?

This is the guy who went all out to get top 4 whenever we were struggling to get it. Spending in January of certain seasons when top 4 was debatable yet didn't spend a penny when we needed something extra to get the title.

In time the anger we feel towards him will subside. I hope so.

But it will need us to be a force again to start that process. With Arteta in charge, too many reminders of the shit Wenger years

[theHotHead]

You put that so well Ach, he spent when top 4 looked in question, but chose not to spend to get us to bridge the gap to the top.

We could've done so much more ..... what a waste !

[Marsbar100]

Wenger was great under dein, soon as dein left it went downhill, dein sortied all the business stuff out and let wenger just manage the team

[Ach]

It's one of the things that come to mind when Wenger is mentioned and it still gets the blood boiling.

Likes of Arshavin, monreal, adebayor etc bought when top 4 in threat

Nothing in January 2014 when going for the title. Oh wait. We got the injured kallstrom to replace the injured Ramsey.

January 2016. Dear God.

[Highbury Hillbilly]

At some point, we have to ease up on the mistakes Wenger made and what he didn't do. What he managed to achieve maybe as good as it gets for a very long time. No point in continuing to dump on our most successful period. I hold the same view for former legends that sometimes say stuff that's out of line.

True, these days the only thing I hold against Wenger is the 15/16 season. Everything else is understandable given the circumstances.

[Marsbar100]

Iirc in 15/16 we was the only team in that summer from the top 5 leagues not to sign a outfield player, what was he thinking

[swipe right]

Wenger did not leave us in a strong position but that is the case with every departing manager. United suffered the same fate with Ferguson. But our problems today are on account of what happened after he left.

The club gave the reigns to Kroenkes young son and an inexperienced chief executive. They got swayed by a couple of crooks like Snaheli and a weak coach like Emery. What we are doing today is unfucking ourselves from that situation.