Will Arsenal ever be great again?

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Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby PairyGrows » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:30 pm

Ever since the suspension of the season in March, I have been struggling with an uncomfortable question. Well, to be candid, I am less uncomfortable with the question but rather the way I find myself answering it.

Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Just five years ago in 2015, our future looked different. We had finished the 2014-15 season strongly in the league. To top it off, we had won a second consecutive FA Cup, showing that Arsenal were ready to win trophies again. The years of financial austerity seemed to have ended too with the signings of Mesut Ozil and Alexis Sanchez in consecutive summers. Finally, there seemed to be grounds to believe Arsenal might be turning the corner.

Fast forward five years, and the picture has changed drastically. Not only have we utterly failed to build upon the foundation we seemed to have had in 2015, but we have also undone a lot of it. We are muddling through our worst season in two decades. Trophies are but a distant daydream. The awful mistakes in building the squad have compromised our finances, leaving little money left to strengthen the team. Very little of the cautious optimism from five years ago seems to remain.

Few of us can argue that the club we support is great right now. It is only dawning on us how incredibly damaging the last five years have been for the club’s long-term prospects. It is a genuine concern of mine that it will take years or even decades to repair the damage, assuming the damage can be repaired at all. Sadly, I fear Arsenal will never be great again. I hope I am wrong, but I see very little hope for the future of our club.

I hope this thread can spark honest, healthy, and productive conversation about the future of Arsenal. If anything, I think that is what we need as a fanbase.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby EliteKiller » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:02 pm

Why not? We have the finances and the facilities so provided we can get the manager and players there is no reason we can't ... that said there are now at least 6 and possibly a few more teams who can match us on and off the pitch in the EPL thus it will be much harder to stay top four than it has been for the last thirty years ...

The fact that Liverpool went through three decades of mediocrity before getting back to the top is empirical evidence that it can be done - let us all hope we can do it a bit quicker. Right now we have an unbalanced squad that will take three years to put right, that's not only about money but about undoing the horrendous contract mess we are in, we have to replace almost every player now 28 or older - Luiz, Sokratis, Ozil, Auba, Laca, Soares, Leno, Mustafi ... and several who simply aren't good enough or don't want to be her Xhaka, Guendouzi ... that's four major players out a year for three years before we even begin to see the light ... it needs to be done.
Last edited by EliteKiller on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby DiamondGooner » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:05 pm

No.

We'd need a revolution.

A new owner, great manager, new players........... right now we have none of those, not even one.

We better get used to top 10 for the next decade and I'm being serious, we
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby ag6789 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:32 am

It is true that we are in doldrums right now, but I think we can be competitive ( meaning achieve top four and win domestic cups), with a few changes. Some changes in management and removing certain deadwood players ( no hope of improvement). First, Raul has to go., along with influential player agents. Need an Arsenal man in Raul`s position; someone emotionally attached.
Deadwoods like Luiz, Xhakha, Douzi, Ozil has to be moved on even if some losses need to be incurred. These players are like festering sores who waste a lot of time and energy of the club as a whole. Poor , unreliable performances, attitude problems, disciplinary issues on and off the field doesn't help the morale at all.
Younger players with potential like Bellerin who seems to have lost their way need to be looked into. Maybe change their roles, and monitor progress for a while , or sell them w/o grinding on like Wilshere and others.
Some smart but decisive investment in key areas like midfield and defense in the summer could change the scenario completely.
The team won't win the league in an year or two, but the spirit will build up along with winning /fighting mentality.
Things have improved over the past four months but stupid and careless mistakes by senior players have undone a lot of the good work that has gone in. That needs to be eliminated first.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Gordon Bennit » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:31 am

Depends what you mean by 'great.' I've had this conversation with friends so many times over the last 4 or 5 years. I am a glass half empty person (I do try not to be, honest!) and I've already come to the belief, for example, that I'll never see Arsenal win the Champions League in my lifetime. I don't subscribe to the idea that every truly great club has to have won the European Cup at least once, but there's no getting away from the fact that nearly every team considered great in their own (major) League has won it. Had the competition existed in the 1930s, I'm confident we'd have won at least 2 but that's only an opinion based on little other than that was the one decade we ruled English football.

As for trophy hauls, we are the 3rd most successful team in English football. That will take a while to be overhauled (if it ever is) by whomever is next and I think the fact that we've never, 30s aside, been a 'spree' team but moreover a club who wins trophies in almost every decade will ensure we're always regarded as a great club in historical terms. If we pick up a few of the cups on offer over this decade then it could be argued we're still a successful club, albeit not great.

As said though, it needs an overhaul which is unlikely to happen. Everyone has picked up on any weaknesses in the spine of the team, but we have major issues in the spine of the club. Utd fans bitch and moan about the Glazers and the debt but even with the pandemic, Utd are in no risk of going bust and they have pumped out big transfers repeatedly. Whether they've turned out ok is another issue. Liverpool's owners have the sun shining out their arses right now, Chelsea still have the same bored billionaire who will throw out some small change when he can, Leicester's owners seem to genuinely care and no doubt that bond has been strengthened by the awful tragedy that occurred, while City's owners are more than happy to spend money like water. They might not sanction a £100 million move for one player but they'll happily spend £150 million plus for two pairs of full backs.

We have an owner who never talks (fine, nor do the others really and I'm not that arsed about what he would say anyway) but more importantly has an established history of owning a range of under achieving franchises in world sports. They are long term buys with actual success on the field/court/pitch whatever being 2nd priority at best. We're no more than an item in a list he produces in pissing contests with his acquaintances on some ranch with expensive whisky and fat cigars.

Reading Arseblog, https://arseblog.com/2020/07/kse-restructure-stadium-debt-analysis-and-opportunity it would appear that the immediate concern is freeing funds for costs rather than improving the team, while somehow loading more debt onto the club. I don't get finance so I may have that arse backwards, Don't think so though.

The other owners all seem to want genuine success or at least rapid improvement in return for their investments. Kroenke just seems to want a receipt with black ink rather than red.

When things looked bad in '96, we had David Dein who basically ran the club and hired Arsene. There's no one there like that who would do that, would grab the club by its collective balls and say this is what we need, this is who we need and actually be right about it. We seem to be more likely to find out what Kia thinks and then play around for a few months pontificating. We're also paying the price for poor decisions; a manager was allowed to continue way beyond his prime (no spine at the top-literally) poor contractual dealings and terrible recruitment over a number of windows. As others have said, it is going to take some time to remedy that.

Bad luck. Churlish, but Liverpool and Utd are the 2 jammiest teams I have ever seen. I don't want to bore everyone with a dissertation but although it's the trophies that count, all of us remember Henchoz being allowed to play volleyball in the 2001 FA Cup Final which was robbed from us and likewise, only Bayern Munich know how they managed to hand Utd the treble. Forgetting that, the bad luck we have suffered is almost supernatural. The injuries for one. More importantly, the timing. We move from Highbury, hell of an opportunity to sell off land...what happens? Worldwide property slump and depression.

We need funds as we are looking like missing out on Europe...what happens? The worst health crisis (thanks China) in living memory and an unprecedented slump in revenue for all concerned. How do you rebuild in that market? (Much more important things though and I am well aware of the awful loss of life and I hope you and yours are ok, just pointing out that now is the one time we don't need to be even more hard-up)

So without funds, a decent infrastructure and with a squad which needs a lot of work, I don't believe we're going to be great anytime soon. Certainly not top 4 for at least a few years and longer than that for a title. It's already 16 years and counting and look at the personnel we could call on at various times in that period. When Europa League football starts to bite Sheff Utd and Wolves, we should be in for the Europa no matter what, but that's not exactly great and we would need to be even greater to win the thing. 'Doldrums' is so right AG, it's how Bob Wilson described the time after 1953 in my first ever Arsenal VHS!

EliteKiller wrote:Why not? We have the finances and the facilities so provided we can get the manager and players there is no reason we can't ... that said there are now at least 6 and possibly more teams who can match us on and off the pitch in the EPL so it will be much harder than the last thirty years ...

The fact that Liverpool went through three decades of mediocrity before getting back to the top is empirical evidence that it can be done - let us all hope we can do it a bit quicker. Right now we have an unbalanced squad that will take three years to put right, that's not only about money but about undoing the horrendous contract mess we are in, we have to replace almost every player now 28 or older - Luiz, Sokratis, Ozil, Auba, Laca, Soares, Leno, Mustafi ... and several who simply aren't good enough or don't want to be her Xhaka, Guendouzi ... that's four major players out a year for three years before we even begin to see the light ... it needs to be done.


I don't think we do have the finances which would prevent us getting the players required, even if Arteta is the right man to lead the club. If he isn't, then who is there who will love the idea of not having a pot to piss in? Aside from the fact we're no longer a 'big job.' Arsenal is now a 'hard job, speeding towards impossible.' As for Liverpool, during their 30 years of 'mediocrity' they won 3 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Cup and 2 Super Cups. Arsenal between 1954 and 1988 for example, won 1 League, 2 FA Cups , I League Cup and 1 Fairs Cup. Their record and ours don't compare. If you want to move nearer to today, in the last 15 years, we've won 4 FA Cups. Again doesn't compare.

Yes it can be done, but look at timing and luck again. Liverpool got Jurgen Klopp when he was free. Could we have done? Maybe, maybe not. Most importantly is what got Liverpool even better. And he isn't even there anymore. Coutinho. They sold him for bloody Monopoly money and with that, got Alisson and Van Dyke. There is no one in our squad who is going to go for up to £142 million, even if the pandemic hadn't happened.

Wait and see. In a week we could have beaten Liverpool and be looking forward to a Cup final against an increasingly erratic Chelsea and then maybe the clouds will part. Greatness may still be a while off.

(Really sorry if I've bored everyone, so deflated after the result and trying to not think about how euphoric I felt in 2004!)
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby gamechannel » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:39 am

We need a sugar daddy owner who wants to win at all costs. Thats the only way we are going to be great again. If we played in the German or French leagues one can make an argument that internal organic growth may give us a chance to be consistently competitive and win the occasional league ala RBL, Monaco or Dortmund from time to time. But we play in the EPL where the top teams are backed by rich owners who spend shit loads of money on ready made stars and known quantities. Organic growth and long term plans will forever keep us in catch up mode because the other teams won't wait on us nor would our own stars.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Dejan » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:07 am

To answer your question

No. I think we will be the quality we are now for at least 10 more years.

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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Mike Dean » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:40 am

With the current ownership, absolutely now way.

A lot of spending and in the right areas needs to be done and the ownership is not going to fund it.

Whole sale changes are needed starting with the ownership.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Arsenal Tone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:17 am

Not without a billionnaire abramovic type owner or a manager with a george graham/mourinho/simeone approach to tactics.
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Angelito » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:56 am

Top-4 was indeed a trophy, eh? ;)

On a serious note, yes. It's not that complicated for a club as big as Arsenal. Look at Liverpool.

We need to buy the right kinds of players. Not necessarily the best, but a type. More importantly, we need to hire a world class manager. Is Arteta that guy? Could be. Too early to tell.

These days, success comes from within. To me, Arsenal directors look like a bunch of naive blokes in their approach. We're also going about it the wrong way by mollycoddling Kia's clients, or spending £100+m on the likes of Luiz, Soares, and Mari.

What annoys me more is that we have plenty of lopsided players in the squad and someone like Xhaka defines Arsenal as a microcosm these days. We've become the Granit Xhaka of football clubs.

Sadly.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Arsenal Tone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:17 am

Angelito wrote:Top-4 was indeed a trophy, eh? ;)

On a serious note, yes. It's not that complicated for a club as big as Arsenal. Look at Liverpool.

We need to buy the right kinds of players. Not necessarily the best, but a type. More importantly, we need to hire a world class manager. Is Arteta that guy? Could be. Too early to tell.

These days, success comes from within. To me, Arsenal directors look like a bunch of naive blokes in their approach. We're also going about it the wrong way by mollycoddling Kia's clients, or spending £100+m on the likes of Luiz, Soares, and Mari.

What annoys me more is that we have plenty of lopsided players in the squad and someone like Xhaka defines Arsenal as a microcosm these days. We've become the Granit Xhaka of football clubs.

Sadly.
We're more like ozil. We were great, amongst the best in the world. Then we lost our way trying too hard to win by being nice without any grit and we went soft. Everyone says that if we were managed right we'd be great again but as time goes by it feels like that is getting less and less likely.
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Nuggets » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:47 am

If the club doesn't have a major clearout we will be midtable cannon fodder for a long time. We have no player commitment they are, well most of them, just out for themselves and their big pay packet. We have an idiot self-concerned board and an owner who doesn't care as long as he makes money. We have had no proper captain and not had one for a long time and a bunch of fairies who care more about their twitter accounts than getting stuck in. We employ a person who has never managed before because he was the cheap option to manage the team so is it any wonder we are in shite street. I am not solely blaming Arteta he inherited a shit team and a shit management structure. We need a manager with balls but the board perhaps would never allow that because it would upset their comfortable lifestyle. As long as we have the same management structure we might as well get used to being called the has-beens of the league.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby theHotHead » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:13 pm

Yes - we will, history shows us that will be the case.
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Ach » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:15 pm

Eventually

Doubt in our life time though
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Re: Will Arsenal ever be great again?

Postby Est83 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:29 pm

Tony Adams wrote:
Angelito wrote:Top-4 was indeed a trophy, eh? ;)

On a serious note, yes. It's not that complicated for a club as big as Arsenal. Look at Liverpool.

We need to buy the right kinds of players. Not necessarily the best, but a type. More importantly, we need to hire a world class manager. Is Arteta that guy? Could be. Too early to tell.

These days, success comes from within. To me, Arsenal directors look like a bunch of naive blokes in their approach. We're also going about it the wrong way by mollycoddling Kia's clients, or spending £100+m on the likes of Luiz, Soares, and Mari.

What annoys me more is that we have plenty of lopsided players in the squad and someone like Xhaka defines Arsenal as a microcosm these days. We've become the Granit Xhaka of football clubs.

Sadly.
We're more like ozil. We were great, amongst the best in the world. Then we lost our way trying too hard to win by being nice without any grit and we went soft. Everyone says that if we were managed right we'd be great again but as time goes by it feels like that is getting less and less likely.


Where do you stand on Arteta?
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