Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

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Discuss anything Arsenal related, players, tactics etc.

Who would you prefer?

Arteta
19
66%
Ancelotti
10
34%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Nuggets » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:03 pm

Özim wrote:
StLGooner wrote:Please feel free.

Unfortunately since I'm a mod I have to read your boring, illogical post. That and the folks in the Ozil thread that same the same thing immediately after every game.

I'm just trying to give you advice so maybe you can extend your knowledge to another subject on the forum. I think we know your stance on Arteta now.


Thank you.

I've posted on plenty of other things, it just happens to be that the manager is the main focus at the moment as the transfer window is shut and results are poor, it's not my fault he's been unconvincing.


True, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am sure if you need advice you would seek it out, if he doesn't like your posts just skim read and perhaps say nout, perhaps then you wouldn't get patronised. Just saying.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby theHotHead » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:19 pm

But STL is right though, its like Ozim is trying to get a record for saying the same thing over and over. The man even started a new thread to say the same thing over and over. It is literally the same thing over and over.

It would be different if he was bringing new shit to the conversation but its the same old same old. Loads of posters dont like Arteta, but its like Ozim is on a crusade or something.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Tony Adams » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:54 am

A thread comparing the results of two manager's we could(/should) have appointed with the one we actually appointed seems fair enough to me :dontknow:

Initially everyone said give Arteta time. He's had seven games and only won one. He's had a transfer window, which I thought some gave as a reason for sacking Emery before Christmas. Now we're told 'wait til the summer' before judging him.

Next it'll be wait til next January for the summer signings to embed. We've seen this conversation before...

This thread shows the impact a new manager with a fresh approach can have and continues to show that Arteta has not made the same impact as the the two other managers.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:01 am

Taking it down to personal level it's where things go off the rails. It's unproductive to jump into the conversation and then start throwing shots when you can ignore it.

We spent months discussing who would be the right candidate for this job and when Ancelotti and Mourinho's names popped up they were dismissed as not being good enough. Why can't there be a running comparison between the three? It's been a slow start for Arteta and it's rightly being pointed out but if he gets the last laugh I'm sure this will be up for discussion again by those that will feel vindicated.

It's still early days for Arteta, but the problem we had under Wenger and Emery was this reluctance by some to just honestly analyse and discuss performances. Can't have a camp that only wants to discuss the good performances and another camp that only focuses on the negatives. That's where we get the bs trolling posts like we keep seeing all over this forum.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Özim » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:31 am

It is still early days of course, but you can still compare his record with the other two managers we were linked with and could have got. As mentioned some people were adamant we shouldn't get those guys for one reason or another and thought Arteta was a better choice.

Ancelotti is particularly relevant as he joined at the same time, the club he joined were actually well below us in the table as well and after some very good reasults including quite few wins they are above us.

Arteta seems to be getting a bye because he's taken over and the team are in a mess and not good enough etc, but doesn't that apply to Ancelotti as well (more so if anything given where Everton were), yet has has managed to win a number of matches.

Personally I feel we shoud have done better, a number of the sides we've played are below us in the table and have vastly inferior resources, all the praise Arteta has got so far and yet he hasn't managed to get results, which at the end of the day is what counts.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Özim » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:34 am

theHotHead wrote:But STL is right though, its like Ozim is trying to get a record for saying the same thing over and over. The man even started a new thread to say the same thing over and over. It is literally the same thing over and over.

It would be different if he was bringing new shit to the conversation but its the same old same old. Loads of posters dont like Arteta, but its like Ozim is on a crusade or something.


Not really no, it seems to me the pro Arteta people only want to hear how great he's done, thing is there is a direct comparison with a guy at Everton who had it worse and yet has managed to turn results around, a manager these same people claimed was past it. If that's the case you have to ask why he is outperforming Arteta.

There's no crusade, it's the main talking point at Arsenal, we employed someone with no experience, it's no real surprise he should be under the spotlight.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby theHotHead » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 am

I was meh when we got Emery but I liked the fact he seemed to be a tactical genius compared to one trick Wenger, I gave the man a chance, even when he began alienating Ozil, we were not losing so I didn't really mind. Our performances were pretty bad though so while I was in the "we are showing mental strength and not losing and thats all that matters" camp I also highlighted the poor and sometimes lucky performances.

I turned on Emery in the new year when his tactics backfired, he was still alienating Ozil and we were defending even worse than under Wenger. I became one of the loud voices wanting Emery to be sacked but even I gave him a fair shot and, lets not forget, he failed to improve us having replaced a GK, CB and adding a specialist DM and a CM.

Arteta has come in and people had condemned him after 2 games, for some people before a ball had even been kicked. Be fair and the conversations will turn into constructive places to be instead of perpetual mudslinging and sniping.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Özim » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:59 am

theHotHead wrote:Arteta has come in and people had condemned him after 2 games, for some people before a ball had even been kicked. Be fair and the conversations will turn into constructive places to be instead of perpetual mudslinging and sniping.


Arteta hasn't been condemned after 2 games, the club chose to employ someone with no experience, some chose to judge him in the same way they would any manager they would expect to come in at that stage of the season, given our position people would have expected a new manager to come in and turn results around, that's the standard bar to measure a manager, this isn't a pet project where we employ a youth coach and give him all the time in the world, that's what small clubs with few resources do.

Ancelotti and Mourinho have both done that, if you're good enough there's no reason why you can't and yet Arteta seems to get a free pass. As I said the club chose the manager not the fans, so he should be judged on what we needed at the time and that wasnt a project that will take 3 years to start to see rewards from. Now obviously I wasn't expecting him to change everything and suddenly turn us into world beaters, but I did expect us to win more games and start to show signs we're turning a corner, instead we've picked up 8 points out of 21 which is a very poor points total so far, we've struggled for goals even more than before and have largely looked unconvincing in games.

Arsenal fans have had to wait for 15 years now, are they just going to keep waiting and accepting this for another 10, or are they going to start raising the bar rather than lowering it because the club wants it that way?
Last edited by Özim on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Ach » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:00 am

Tony Adams wrote:A thread comparing the results of two manager's we could(/should) have appointed with the one we actually appointed seems fair enough to me :dontknow:

Initially everyone said give Arteta time. He's had seven games and only won one. He's had a transfer window, which I thought some gave as a reason for sacking Emery before Christmas. Now we're told 'wait til the summer' before judging him.

Next it'll be wait til next January for the summer signings to embed. We've seen this conversation before...

This thread shows the impact a new manager with a fresh approach can have and continues to show that Arteta has not made the same impact as the the two other managers.

Yup

It's not like Arteta is being compared with managers that have been with clubs for years and have implemented their own players and style. All 3 are new to their clubs. Only one is flopping.

Arsenal were above both when emery was here.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Nuggets » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:48 am

Özim wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Arteta has come in and people had condemned him after 2 games, for some people before a ball had even been kicked. Be fair and the conversations will turn into constructive places to be instead of perpetual mudslinging and sniping.


Arteta hasn't been condemned after 2 games, the club chose to employ someone with no experience, some chose to judge him in the same way they would any manager they would expect to come in at that stage of the season, given our position people would have expected a new manager to come in and turn results around, that's the standard bar to measure a manager, this isn't a pet project where we employ a youth coach and give him all the time in the world, that's what small clubs with few resources do.

Ancelotti and Mourinho have both done that, if you're good enough there's no reason why you can't and yet Arteta seems to get a free pass. As I said the club chose the manager not the fans, so he should be judged on what we needed at the time and that wasnt a project that will take 3 years to start to see rewards from. Now obviously I wasn't expecting him to change everything and suddenly turn us into world beaters, but I did expect us to win more games and start to show signs we're turning a corner, instead we've picked up 8 points out of 21 which is a very poor points total so far, we've struggled for goals even more than before and have largely looked unconvincing in games.

Arsenal fans have had to wait for 15 years now, are they just going to keep waiting and accepting this for another 10, or are they going to start raising the bar rather than lowering it because the club wants it that way?


You are right in what you are saying, unfortunately out of the three we got the worst manager, I wasn't expecting miracles but expected a bit better considering the teams we have played and dropped points against. I really hope he can turn it around but I don't think he can, so we are stuck with him, it's a great pity the board penny pinched and we got the cheap one. I don't blame it all on Arteta because he inheriteda pile of shite and a club in turmoil it will get a lot worse before it gets better sadly.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Özim » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:30 pm

Nuggets wrote:You are right in what you are saying, unfortunately out of the three we got the worst manager, I wasn't expecting miracles but expected a bit better considering the teams we have played and dropped points against. I really hope he can turn it around but I don't think he can, so we are stuck with him, it's a great pity the board penny pinched and we got the cheap one. I don't blame it all on Arteta because he inheriteda pile of shite and a club in turmoil it will get a lot worse before it gets better sadly.


At this stage it looks like it. Me neither, but I was expecting an upturn in results, considering how poor our results were it wasn't too hard, unfortunately we've not seen that, almost every game has been really hard work and the football hasn't really even been that great, despite the claims he would transform this.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Özim » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:32 pm

Ach wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:A thread comparing the results of two manager's we could(/should) have appointed with the one we actually appointed seems fair enough to me :dontknow:

Initially everyone said give Arteta time. He's had seven games and only won one. He's had a transfer window, which I thought some gave as a reason for sacking Emery before Christmas. Now we're told 'wait til the summer' before judging him.

Next it'll be wait til next January for the summer signings to embed. We've seen this conversation before...

This thread shows the impact a new manager with a fresh approach can have and continues to show that Arteta has not made the same impact as the the two other managers.

Yup

It's not like Arteta is being compared with managers that have been with clubs for years and have implemented their own players and style. All 3 are new to their clubs. Only one is flopping.

Arsenal were above both when emery was here.


It's like for like, particularly with Ancelotti, but I don't see any acknowledgment of that by some, neither do I see these people saying he needs to do better, instead he's getting a free pass. If the other can do it, why does he get a free pass, surely he should be judged by the same criteria, which IMO is for a manager who comes in mid season, to turn results around, that's always been the case for any manager coming in mid-season.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Angelito » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:11 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
Özim wrote:
Angelito wrote:We seem to have forgotten that Spurs were UCL Finalists and have consistently finished in the top-4 under Poch?

And, Ancelotti has failed in his last two jobs.

Next please.


We haven't forgotten, the point was to show the impact of the new manager on the team, Mourinhos' impact has been significant, as has Ancelottis, Artetas' not so much.

As for Ancelotti failing in his last two jobs, his time at Bayern wasn't a massive success but he won the title, so he continued to win stuff just like he has throughout his career, at Napoli the owner got a bit too much involved so he had no choice but to leave. Arteta has never won a thing, worse still he's never managed before, to give him the job was madness to be honest.


I've never understood that argument about him failing with Bayern or Napoli. Especially coming from Angelito who is in favour of Conte because wouldn't that mean he failed with Chelsea if judging by the same standard? I just wouldn't make that argument for either of them.


How can you compare Conte and Ancelotti?

Conte won the Prem in his first season at Chelsea—notching 93 points and won the FA Cup in his subsequent season. He also created this monster known as modern day Juventus. When Conte won the Prem, he beat Pep, Klopp, Wenger, Mourinho, and Pochettino to the title. Currently, Conte is challenging for the title. We all know where Ancelotti left Napoli.

Ancelotti was ridiculed at Bayern for his training methods and lost the dressing room there. He won the League with the only club that's been winning BuLi since 2013. At Napoli, he didn't succeed either. He took Sarri's great side and didn't achieve much in his first season. In his second season, he took Napoli to one of their worst starts in recent history.

You cannot compare an elite manager like Conte to a past-his-prime Ancelotti.

Talking about Ancelotti's "achievements" at Bayern is the same as praising Unai Emery for his achievements at PSG. The only difference is that Ancelotti was a once-great manager and Unai has never been top quality. Having said that, Ancelotti won one league title with the great Milan side and failed to win the League with Real Madrid.

Doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:21 pm

Özim wrote:
theHotHead wrote:But STL is right though, its like Ozim is trying to get a record for saying the same thing over and over. The man even started a new thread to say the same thing over and over. It is literally the same thing over and over.

It would be different if he was bringing new shit to the conversation but its the same old same old. Loads of posters dont like Arteta, but its like Ozim is on a crusade or something.


Not really no, it seems to me the pro Arteta people only want to hear how great he's done, thing is there is a direct comparison with a guy at Everton who had it worse and yet has managed to turn results around, a manager these same people claimed was past it. If that's the case you have to ask why he is outperforming Arteta.

There's no crusade, it's the main talking point at Arsenal, we employed someone with no experience, it's no real surprise he should be under the spotlight.



I'm not pro Arteta (I never really liked the guy tbh). I'm pro logic and reason. I'm pro giving a manager at least a season before we start whining like little bitches and saying the same f***ing thing in every damn post about the manager. I'm pro actually being able to know how football works and how things just can't change over night or in 9 games and understanding things take time. I'm pro not having an agenda against a manager because the last one that you loved didn't work out. I'm pro not being an annoying troll because my pathetic life is useless (not you in general but some on here). I'm pro giving the same amount of time to each manager regardless of their experience. I'm pro sticking behind my team even in the worst of times.

This is just another instance where people don't actually read post and just read a few lines and then say something that doesn't even make sense to the context of the conversation. I never once said anything about this thread in particular or that it wasn't needed. I'm just tired of reading the same remarks about Arteta. Whether they be positive or negative, it's time to say something else. You don't have to of course, and I can't make you, but all I was doing is calling out the monotony of your opinion about him. I can't just ignore it as a Mod.


I apologize to everyone for being so logical and reasonable. I see that it's not the most popular stance on this forum any longer. I'll try harder to be more like you guys, and post more knee jerk, agenda driven nonsense.
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Re: Arteta vs Ancelotti vs Mourinho

Postby Angelito » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:51 pm

Tony Adams wrote:A thread comparing the results of two manager's we could(/should) have appointed with the one we actually appointed seems fair enough to me :dontknow:

Initially everyone said give Arteta time. He's had seven games and only won one. He's had a transfer window, which I thought some gave as a reason for sacking Emery before Christmas. Now we're told 'wait til the summer' before judging him.

Next it'll be wait til next January for the summer signings to embed. We've seen this conversation before...

This thread shows the impact a new manager with a fresh approach can have and continues to show that Arteta has not made the same impact as the the two other managers.


So what's the solution? To give Arteta some more time after overseeing one of the most chaotic take-overs by an Arsenal manager in decades, or to sack him after 7 games because he isn't walking on water already?

What is it?
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