Gabriel Magalhães (6)

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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:12 pm

Zenith wrote:Sigh. It's really not that deep or difficult to grasp.

Luiz at age 33 simply hasn't got the legs to play in midfield in the most physically demanding league in the world football.

The one time he did play in midfield was when we got humiliated at home by Frankfurt. Luiz was all over the place and gasping for air after 20 minutes.

Peeps and their video game tactics... :lol:

'dEcEnT pAsSeR sO CaN eAsIlY PlAy iN mIdFiEld'

I am pretty sure I have had this argument with you before Zenith. Playing as a dedicated DM does not require legs. Playing as a CB requires more legs because you are constantly pushing up (playing offside) and running back (to defend balls over the top. Sitting in front of the defence and not venturing past the centre line does not require the energy you seem to think it does.

Has nothing to do with video game tactics, having played both roles I know which position had me busting a gut more, it wasnt the DM role !
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:15 pm

KG3 wrote:
2-1 isn’t exactly a humiliation and when you consider how bad the lineup was that day what do you expect Xhaka and Willock as midfield partners Mustafi, Sokratis in the centre with Chambers at RB.

Players don’t have to be fast to play CDM think of Busquests, Barry and Thiago Motta to name a few that were still doing the job in their 30s, to rule him out after one game as an option there is harsh, he’s certainly no slower than Xhaka and comfortably better under pressure, don’t see why it couldn’t be an option in an emergency or in cup games/Europa against lower quality teams for rotation.

Exactly that. An extreme version of the role would be David Batty who was very good at it, he didn't have an offensive bone in his body, just sat there and screened.
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Arsenal Tone » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:28 pm

Gabriel has all the attributes imo
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Zenith » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:33 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Zenith wrote:Sigh. It's really not that deep or difficult to grasp.

Luiz at age 33 simply hasn't got the legs to play in midfield in the most physically demanding league in the world football.

The one time he did play in midfield was when we got humiliated at home by Frankfurt. Luiz was all over the place and gasping for air after 20 minutes.

Peeps and their video game tactics... :lol:

'dEcEnT pAsSeR sO CaN eAsIlY PlAy iN mIdFiEld'

I am pretty sure I have had this argument with you before Zenith. Playing as a dedicated DM does not require legs. Playing as a CB requires more legs because you are constantly pushing up (playing offside) and running back (to defend balls over the top. Sitting in front of the defence and not venturing past the centre line does not require the energy you seem to think it does.

Has nothing to do with video game tactics, having played both roles I know which position had me busting a gut more, it wasnt the DM role !

Last time I provided evidence to back up my claim and refute yours. In your reply you ignored all of that and refuted to whataboutism.

Because it's a grandiose waste of time to repeat myself, I'll refer you and the readers to that particular post. ↓  ↓  ↓

Zenith wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Zenith wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Zenith wrote:Just like 99.997% of 33-year-old CBs he doesn't have the legs to play as defensive midfielder in physically the most demanding league in world football.

People are underestimating the enormous difference in intensity between CB and DM. Especially during games in which we struggle to keep the ball—like against City—he'd be gasping for air 30 minutes in.

Additionally, he would still make the same positional and judgemental errors.

Nah, I don't agree with this, it takes less energy playing DM than it does CB. If Luiz's job is to sit and screen in front of the back four - which I think he would be very good at, He would occupy an area of the pitch just in front of the defence to the halfway line. CBs have a shit load of running to do. when the keeper boots it forward they have to leg it forward to leave forwards offside, when attacking teams go over the top they have to leg it backwards to cover the forwards. You need to have a gas tank to play as a CB - that typically covers at least half of the pitch don't forget.

Why do you think a lot of 33+ year-old DMs make the switch to CB?

Why do you think virtually no 33+ year-old CBs make the switch to DM?

Sorry if this sounds impolite HotHead, but it's obvious you haven't played much (if any) competitive football in your life.

Zenith, I played semi pro football as a centre forward, then as a box to box midfielder. I played Sunday League football as a CB and CM in various roles (box to box and holding midfielder). I can categorically tell you I know what I am talking about. I flirted at semi pro as a winger (inspired by Merson) and played 2 games and said fook that - way too much energy required.

The game (especially English) is faster in midfield than it is in defence, but if you are just sitting, like David Batty, Makelele et all used to, you don't have to make lung busting runs and you get plenty of moments when you can get your recovery. CBs are forever pushing forward (to shorten the pitch) or retreating to defend an attack, CBs are fitter than you think.

If I was to grade what positions require the most energy I would have it:
Wing Backs
Wingers (that are asked to defend) and attacking full backs
Box to Box midfielders (because typically when one CM goes forward, the other one sits)
Forwards and CBs (cos forwards need to run back to stay onside as well - then be ready to chase down lost causes)
Normal Full backs
DM/Holding Mids
Sweeper CBs
goalkeepers.


My own experience playing as holding midfielder and centre-back is the exact opposite. Since those experiences can't be proven I won't elaborate further on this in an attempt to keep this post concise.

Inevitably, as players age, they eventually start to struggle to keep up with the intensity. With intensity I'm specifically referring to average distance covered and the lower amount of intervals DMs have between exertions compared to CBs. Some defensive midfield players even make the switch to CB to extend their career.

The most famous one is probably Lothaur Matthäus. As he entered the autumn of his career and moved to CB during his final years at Bayern. Matthäus mentioned (I paraphrase) that he felt his legs were going and was no longer able to play in midfield and managed to extend the length of his career by changing position to CB/SW. His position change also helped him win German Footballer of the Year at age 38.

Sven Bender is another example. Repeated long-term muscle injuries took their tole on his stamina/endurance. Was advised to make the switch to CB where he'd have more intervals between exertions. He hasn't had any long-term injuries since.

You challenged my point and claimed centre-backs run more than defensive midfield players.
theHothead wrote:it takes less energy playing DM than it does CB


Let's put this debate to bed and look at the numbers.

Total difference covered. Top 4 consists solely out of DMs. No CB to be seen.

Image

Now let's look at most distance covered per 90. Two out-and-out DMs in Rodri and Billing make the top 5. The other three are CMs/AMs (Gross, Alli, Fornals). No CB makes the list.

Image

What about average distance per 90? One wing back, the rest are midfielders, several of whom are DMs. Again, not a single CB to be seen.

Image

Image

I rest my case.


Members like Santi, Dejan and Rockape all agreed with me -

Santi wrote:Wonder if HH can breathe down there, we should really dig him out.


Dejan wrote:A pic of a grave by cripps with hot heads name has never been more appropiate


Rockape wrote: :lol: I played centre forward, attacking midfield and at the highest level, centre back and can concur that the latter needed less energy, although more concentration.
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:19 pm

If I remember rightly I refuted YOUR arguments !

1) Running 12km by doing lots of sprints takes far more energy than doing a gentle jog. Distance covered, therefore, DOES NOT refute my arguments in any way whatsoever !

2) Energy expended would be affected by the specific role played. all the DMs YOU listed do more than just screen the defensive line, many of them support attacks and can be found in advanced positions. It takes less energy to cover a smaller area. I made my response to you quite clear and, contrary to your claim above that I ignored your comments and whatever other nonsense. I provided proof to back up my arguments and heatmaps, but, surprise surprise no response from YOU to my post, but I am the one ignoring comments ?????? You joker.

To refresh the memory of the people dem:


Firstly you talk about Lothar Mattheus, he was a CM, box to box, he was never a CB he was a sweeper, pure and simple. It meant less running for him. Sweeping is easy, all you literally do is drop back and "sweep" he is not chasing forwards and strikers all over the place. And lets not forget the role the offside trap played in killing the need for a sweeper.

Now lets get into your stats. Your first graphic shows distance covered, now I CLEARLY SAID "takes less energy" I never said ANYTHING AT ALL about running less. I even mentioned making "lung busting runs". It is far more difficult to do continued lung busting runs at pace than it is to jog around the pitch all day. Its one of the reasons doing "doggies" is one of the worst drills to do because by the end you cannot get enough air in to you lungs. So that in itself kills your argument because you misinterpreted what I wrote. But cool, lets go further into your stats.

That same first graphic lists Ndidi (Leicester) and Ngolo Kante (Chelsea) as DMs. They are no such thing - especially Kante at Chelsea !! Ndidi is a box to box midfielder, it explains why he brings the ball forward and is often seen spreading the ball to wide men close to opponent's boxes, to keep the attack going. When we talk about DMs we are talking the likes of - and I gave these names in my earlier post, David Batty and Claude Makelele. Those players never supported attacks, they sat and protected the defence. The distinction is CLEAR as to what a DM is, Neither Ndidi or Kante are those. Look at a typical Ndidi heat map:
Image
Look how much time Ndidi spends going forward !! That is NOT what a DM does, by definition, you can see he is no DM.

Here is another heat map, it clearly shows Ndidi spends a considerable amount of time in the opposing team's half, outside their box:
Image

Now, lets look at a heat map that shows Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard and Gareth Barry during an England game, look at their heat maps and their distances covered:
Image
The player spending most of their time in their own half (Gerrard) covered the least distance. The player performing the box to box role (Barry) covered the most ground. Interestingly, the player that literally covers play in both boxes (Lampard) covered 3000m in the 20 mins he played, had he played 90 mins like the other 2 would've easily covered the most ground of the 3. The point I am making is, when your heat map has you in advanced areas of the pitch consistently you cannot be classed as a DM.

Luka Milijojevic heat map - how can he be a DM when he goes up and down and wide ???:

Image

Basically the players listed as DMs are no such thing, they are essentially box to box midfielders, ALL CMs have a starting point in and around the centre circle, True DMs don't tend to go too much further than that, they certainly do NOT support attacks. The rest of your stats all support the already confirmed point that - they argue a point that was not made.


If Santi and Dejan agreed with you then, thats their business, my response hits them as well, your argument was refuted with stats and facts.
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Dejan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:16 pm

Luiz gabriel is our best partnership by far imo

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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Zenith » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:01 pm

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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby ESR10 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:08 pm

Great news.

I'm not sure if he will be back directly in the team given the good looking Holding - Mari partnership and Gabriel's form dropping a little bit before he got Covid.

Later this season I want to see him and Mari playing together.
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby KG3 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:13 pm

What an awful performance so far, Holding/Luiz should keep their places in the BPL on current form
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Santi » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:14 pm

He’s had a shocker that half for sure
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Yago » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:15 pm

KG3 wrote:What an awful performance so far, Holding/Luiz should keep their places in the BPL on current form


I hope you mean Holding/Mari.
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby KG3 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:18 pm

Yago wrote:
KG3 wrote:What an awful performance so far, Holding/Luiz should keep their places in the BPL on current form


I hope you mean Holding/Mari.


No Mari is injured and Holding/Luiz are playing well together, when Mari comes back great he should earn his place back
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Losmeister » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 pm

am watching a really short reel ofthe game...and Gabe looked absolute pants... not the same player i saw earlier on this year
Kai Havertz nutmegged ur GK
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby greengoonerie » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:11 pm

Losmeister wrote:am watching a really short reel ofthe game...and Gabe looked absolute pants... not the same player i saw earlier on this year

Lucky you. I watched the entire game and yes Gabriel was utter pants.

Hopeless body position for the OG. Yqrds off the pace all day.

Needs to get fit to the pace of playing PL teams because he's way too slow in body and mind atm.

Soton made him look a fool on a number of occasions
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Re: Gabriel Magalhães (6)

Postby Ach » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:13 pm

Hasn't really impressed. Scored a couple which makes him look better than he has been. Early days though and he's just come back from a lay off

Aids manager doesn't help
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