North London Powershift

Discuss anything Arsenal-related. Tune in to get the latest news, and discuss results, performances, tactics, etc.

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Phil71 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Rockape wrote:This is ridiculous! How anyone can argue that’s it’s not in our best interests to qualify for the CL and rake in the money accordingly is deluded.

Regardless of whether we spend money wisely, we actually need it to buy players to revitalize our squad. Phil’s post explained that in great detail. If we even want to think about competing for the top honours, we need money to spend.


We don't need CL money to revitalise our squad. Reality tells you this. We've brought in big money signings regularly whilst being out of the CL. We signed Lacazette and Aubamayang for a combined £120m. We didn't get in the top 4. How much do you want to spend? £300m on two players? Who?
The difference between a £10m player and a £60m player is far less than the difference between a team playing as a team with focus and courage than one that makes the kind of silly errors our players do week in week out.

Sure, it would be nice for the owners to swell the bank balance, but progressing as a team? No, the CL is not a must.


We brought those players in with CL money earned the season before.
User avatar
Phil71
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 10569
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 9:27 am

Phil71 wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Rockape wrote:This is ridiculous! How anyone can argue that’s it’s not in our best interests to qualify for the CL and rake in the money accordingly is deluded.

Regardless of whether we spend money wisely, we actually need it to buy players to revitalize our squad. Phil’s post explained that in great detail. If we even want to think about competing for the top honours, we need money to spend.


We don't need CL money to revitalise our squad. Reality tells you this. We've brought in big money signings regularly whilst being out of the CL. We signed Lacazette and Aubamayang for a combined £120m. We didn't get in the top 4. How much do you want to spend? £300m on two players? Who?
The difference between a £10m player and a £60m player is far less than the difference between a team playing as a team with focus and courage than one that makes the kind of silly errors our players do week in week out.

Sure, it would be nice for the owners to swell the bank balance, but progressing as a team? No, the CL is not a must.


We brought those players in with CL money earned the season before.


We earned about £40m from the CL because we did not progress very far. That's not £120m.
Winning the EL will net us about £20m.
So we get an extra £20m from being in the CL.
£20m and humiliation at the hands of teams like Bayern OR winning the EL. Obvious choice.

Spurs are in the CL final, lest we forget that horror - They have spent a net of MINUS 30m in the last 5 seasons on transfers.

Fans are way too focused on CL money and seem willing to give up a realistic chance of a final for £20m. That's not being a fan of the game or the club in my view.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Tue May 21, 2019 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Phil71 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Rockape wrote:This is ridiculous! How anyone can argue that’s it’s not in our best interests to qualify for the CL and rake in the money accordingly is deluded.

Regardless of whether we spend money wisely, we actually need it to buy players to revitalize our squad. Phil’s post explained that in great detail. If we even want to think about competing for the top honours, we need money to spend.


We don't need CL money to revitalise our squad. Reality tells you this. We've brought in big money signings regularly whilst being out of the CL. We signed Lacazette and Aubamayang for a combined £120m. We didn't get in the top 4. How much do you want to spend? £300m on two players? Who?
The difference between a £10m player and a £60m player is far less than the difference between a team playing as a team with focus and courage than one that makes the kind of silly errors our players do week in week out.

Sure, it would be nice for the owners to swell the bank balance, but progressing as a team? No, the CL is not a must.


We brought those players in with CL money earned the season before.


We earned about £40m from the CL because we did not progress very far. That's not £120m.
Winning the EL will net us about £20m.
So we get an extra £20m from being in the CL.
£20m and humiliation at the hands of teams like Bayern OR winning the EL. Obvious choice.


Plus the extra revenue from the commercials.

You won't win anything with brave, courageous, hard working players alone. You need quality. We need quality. And that needs money.
User avatar
Phil71
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 10569
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 9:39 am

Phil71 wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Rockape wrote:This is ridiculous! How anyone can argue that’s it’s not in our best interests to qualify for the CL and rake in the money accordingly is deluded.

Regardless of whether we spend money wisely, we actually need it to buy players to revitalize our squad. Phil’s post explained that in great detail. If we even want to think about competing for the top honours, we need money to spend.


We don't need CL money to revitalise our squad. Reality tells you this. We've brought in big money signings regularly whilst being out of the CL. We signed Lacazette and Aubamayang for a combined £120m. We didn't get in the top 4. How much do you want to spend? £300m on two players? Who?
The difference between a £10m player and a £60m player is far less than the difference between a team playing as a team with focus and courage than one that makes the kind of silly errors our players do week in week out.

Sure, it would be nice for the owners to swell the bank balance, but progressing as a team? No, the CL is not a must.


We brought those players in with CL money earned the season before.


We earned about £40m from the CL because we did not progress very far. That's not £120m.
Winning the EL will net us about £20m.
So we get an extra £20m from being in the CL.
£20m and humiliation at the hands of teams like Bayern OR winning the EL. Obvious choice.


Plus the extra revenue from the commercials.

You won't win anything with brave, courageous, hard working players alone. You need quality. We need quality. And that needs money.


Your argument assumes that brave, courageous, hard working players can't also have quality. We need both - and that does NOT require CL money - as Spurs have proven.
We can do much better than spending £80m on Xhaka and Mustafi, for example, WITHOUT "CL money".

If you really want to understand the ACTUAL difference you can look at our accounts.
2016-17 season after being in the CL our Turnover was £417m.
2017-18 season with a EL run our turnover was £404m.

You are getting hung up on £13m - less than 3% difference - and somehow thinking that is the be all and end all and without that 3% we're doomed.
That's nonsense.

I am willing to change my mind, of course, if you can explain to me how that £13m is the big key to being successful or not. Perhaps you could lay out a plan for that £13m that shows me.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Tue May 21, 2019 10:14 am

jayramfootball wrote:Your argument assumes that brave, courageous, hard working players can't also have quality. We need both - and that does NOT require CL money - as Spurs have proven.
We can do much better than spending £80m on Xhaka and Mustafi, for example, WITHOUT "CL money".

If you really want to understand the ACTUAL difference you can look at our accounts.
2016-17 season after being in the CL our Turnover was £417m.
2017-18 season with a EL run our turnover was £404m.

You are getting hung up on £13m - less than 3% difference - and somehow thinking that is the be all and end all and without that 3% we're doomed.
That's nonsense.

I am willing to change my mind, of course, if you can explain to me how that £13m is the big key to being successful or not. Perhaps you could lay out a plan for that £13m that shows me.


Spurs will get an extra 100m from the CL this season .... we will get 20m from the EL .... that's not 13m it's 80m that's huge

If you're saying we're not as good as Spurs so why bother playing in the CL ... then f**k right off

The difference between Arsenal 2017 and Arsenal 2018 means feck all ... if in 2019 we know we will be down 80m to our noisy neighbours do we really want to risk being down another 80m next year? ... all you're doing is looking at Arsenal 2017 v Arsenal 2018 the fact is neither team was good enough so what's the point ... we are not competing with ourselves but with the other clubs in the top six .... Utd can survive without CL for a while, probably City as well, the rest of us will struggle.

We used to be second highest revenue, then third, then fourth and now quite possibly dropping down to sixth .... sure we still make as much as we did in 2017 however the problem is everyone else makes 100m more than they did in 2017 .... we're getting left behind we need to be back at the top level, if Spuds can make the final then sure we can as well .... have a bit more faith.
EliteKiller
Tony Adams
Tony Adams
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Dejan » Tue May 21, 2019 10:48 am

Dont have the time to check all the figures but whats the difference in money between:

Quarter final CL (realistic ending for us tbh)
and
Europa league finalist or winner
Rest in Peace SE13 :(
User avatar
Dejan
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 27398
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Phil71 » Tue May 21, 2019 10:54 am

Dejan wrote:Dont have the time to check all the figures but whats the difference in money between:

Quarter final CL (realistic ending for us tbh)
and
Europa league finalist or winner


€30m in participation money alone.

Then add the commercials. Maybe another €30-50m.
User avatar
Phil71
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 10569
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 11:06 am

EliteKiller wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:Your argument assumes that brave, courageous, hard working players can't also have quality. We need both - and that does NOT require CL money - as Spurs have proven.
We can do much better than spending £80m on Xhaka and Mustafi, for example, WITHOUT "CL money".

If you really want to understand the ACTUAL difference you can look at our accounts.
2016-17 season after being in the CL our Turnover was £417m.
2017-18 season with a EL run our turnover was £404m.

You are getting hung up on £13m - less than 3% difference - and somehow thinking that is the be all and end all and without that 3% we're doomed.
That's nonsense.

I am willing to change my mind, of course, if you can explain to me how that £13m is the big key to being successful or not. Perhaps you could lay out a plan for that £13m that shows me.


Spurs will get an extra 100m from the CL this season .... we will get 20m from the EL .... that's not 13m it's 80m that's huge

If you're saying we're not as good as Spurs so why bother playing in the CL ... then f**k right off

The difference between Arsenal 2017 and Arsenal 2018 means feck all ... if in 2019 we know we will be down 80m to our noisy neighbours do we really want to risk being down another 80m next year? ... all you're doing is looking at Arsenal 2017 v Arsenal 2018 the fact is neither team was good enough so what's the point ... we are not competing with ourselves but with the other clubs in the top six .... Utd can survive without CL for a while, probably City as well, the rest of us will struggle.

We used to be second highest revenue, then third, then fourth and now quite possibly dropping down to sixth .... sure we still make as much as we did in 2017 however the problem is everyone else makes 100m more than they did in 2017 .... we're getting left behind we need to be back at the top level, if Spuds can make the final then sure we can as well .... have a bit more faith.


Spurs made it to the final with a negative transfer spend over the last 5 years. The money that they will get in the future has, obviously, not contributed to that success. i.e. your argument sucks.

The difference in our turnover between a CL season and a EL season is £13m. That's a fact. i.e. it made very little difference to us.
The money from the CL is such a minor thing for us that it's utterly stupid to get hung up on it.
I'd prefer us to be in the CL, of course, but right now it's not going to be a major factor in whether Emery can get us back to a level where we could actually win the thing. We're miles away from that at the moment.

I think that is what hothead was trying to educate you on, but you went off on some childish "go and support Spurs" rant.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Tue May 21, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 am

Phil71 wrote:
Dejan wrote:Dont have the time to check all the figures but whats the difference in money between:

Quarter final CL (realistic ending for us tbh)
and
Europa league finalist or winner


€30m in participation money alone.

Then add the commercials. Maybe another €30-50m.


Nope - 20 million Euro's difference and the commercial impact is zero.
I know this because I compared the accounts between a CL season (last 16) and our EL season (semi final).
The actual difference is £13m in total.
i.e. neglible and not worth worrying about.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby EliteKiller » Tue May 21, 2019 12:44 pm

jayramfootball wrote:Spurs made it to the final with a negative transfer spend over the last 5 years. The money that they will get in the future has, obviously, not contributed to that success. i.e. your argument sucks.


It's truly pathetic .... are you saying because Spurs did it already with no money that giving them an extra 80m this season will make no difference?

Seriously that's your argument? ... In cast you've forgotten Spurs haven't spent nothing in fact they spent 262m on new players in the last five years but they also got back 219m in sales ... so to say they've spent nothing is just bollocks

By comparison we've spent 385m and only got back 163m .... simple piss poor management

So we've spent more got back less, and now dropped below them. Yet you and d***head think them gaining 80m more than us in Europe will make no difference? Really? are you that deluded?

If we couldn't compete when we had more money to spend how is wanting us to make less going to help?

Just to be clear AGAIN The CL 12.7m participation money, getting to the Group stages (which is automatic for the EPL top four) 15.2m then 2.7m for a win, 900k for a draw ... so even playing shit you good for 30m ... last sixteen adds 10m so already at 40m so the chances are even if we were to get thrashed 10-2 in the last sixteen we'd still pick up well over 40m

By comparison the EL Finalists get 22m

Can you see the difference now .... :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

There is a reason all the top clubs are desperate to be in the CL ... and it's feckin' money !!!!!!!!!!!
EliteKiller
Tony Adams
Tony Adams
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Dejan » Tue May 21, 2019 12:56 pm

Go get em EK
Rest in Peace SE13 :(
User avatar
Dejan
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 27398
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby Phil71 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:57 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Dejan wrote:Dont have the time to check all the figures but whats the difference in money between:

Quarter final CL (realistic ending for us tbh)
and
Europa league finalist or winner


€30m in participation money alone.

Then add the commercials. Maybe another €30-50m.


Nope - 20 million Euro's difference and the commercial impact is zero.
I know this because I compared the accounts between a CL season (last 16) and our EL season (semi final).
The actual difference is £13m in total.
i.e. neglible and not worth worrying about.


If you really believe that there is such a small financial difference between playing in the CL and the EL you are seriously misguided.

And if you really believe that we can achieve real success - i.e. League titles and CL titles - without that extra money you are wrong.

I'm not sure what else to say.
User avatar
Phil71
Herbert Chapman
Herbert Chapman
 
Posts: 10569
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 3:06 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:Spurs made it to the final with a negative transfer spend over the last 5 years. The money that they will get in the future has, obviously, not contributed to that success. i.e. your argument sucks.


It's truly pathetic .... are you saying because Spurs did it already with no money that giving them an extra 80m this season will make no difference?

Seriously that's your argument? ... In cast you've forgotten Spurs haven't spent nothing in fact they spent 262m on new players in the last five years but they also got back 219m in sales ... so to say they've spent nothing is just bollocks

By comparison we've spent 385m and only got back 163m .... simple piss poor management

So we've spent more got back less, and now dropped below them. Yet you and d***head think them gaining 80m more than us in Europe will make no difference? Really? are you that deluded?

If we couldn't compete when we had more money to spend how is wanting us to make less going to help?

Just to be clear AGAIN The CL 12.7m participation money, getting to the Group stages (which is automatic for the EPL top four) 15.2m then 2.7m for a win, 900k for a draw ... so even playing shit you good for 30m ... last sixteen adds 10m so already at 40m so the chances are even if we were to get thrashed 10-2 in the last sixteen we'd still pick up well over 40m

By comparison the EL Finalists get 22m

Can you see the difference now .... :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

There is a reason all the top clubs are desperate to be in the CL ... and it's feckin' money !!!!!!!!!!!


No, I am saying that Spurs did not need big money to get into a CL final. I say that with confidence because its a fact. They traded wisely and spent little money net. Obviously you don;t need CL money if you sell players and use the money to bring players in. Would have thought that would be obvious, at least.
So they'll get £80 from the CL run (that they achieved without spending huge amounts on players)... They'll still be on about the same revenue as us, maybe less.
Who cares?

As for CL money I already know the numbers - if we were in it and got to the last 16 we'd have earned about £20m more than we will this season from the EL run. So? £20m is not going to make or break us.

What will we do with £20m more that will magically turn us around? That's just over half of what we paid for Mustafi.

You just haven't really thought your argument through.

We have plenty of money and plenty of players to sell to bring in new players. "CL money" would add very little.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby jayramfootball » Tue May 21, 2019 3:10 pm

Phil71 wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Dejan wrote:Dont have the time to check all the figures but whats the difference in money between:

Quarter final CL (realistic ending for us tbh)
and
Europa league finalist or winner


€30m in participation money alone.

Then add the commercials. Maybe another €30-50m.


Nope - 20 million Euro's difference and the commercial impact is zero.
I know this because I compared the accounts between a CL season (last 16) and our EL season (semi final).
The actual difference is £13m in total.
i.e. neglible and not worth worrying about.


If you really believe that there is such a small financial difference between playing in the CL and the EL you are seriously misguided.

And if you really believe that we can achieve real success - i.e. League titles and CL titles - without that extra money you are wrong.

I'm not sure what else to say.


How did Spurs get in the CL final with a net spend of a little over £6m a year on average for the last 5 years?
How did Liverpool spend a net of £80m less than us over the last 5 years and make the CL final and accumulate 95 points in the PL?

What magic is this????
Surely the only way to win is "CL Money"?
:sneaky2:
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: North London Powershift

Postby UFGN » Tue May 21, 2019 3:12 pm

Leicester
Corinthians 15:57; But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus

Image
User avatar
UFGN
Member of the Year 2014, 2019
Member of the Year 2014, 2019
 
Posts: 23384
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: London, init

PreviousNext

Return to Arsenal Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MathyGooner, swipe right and 35 guests