Bukayo Saka (7)

Arsenal news and interviews
Discuss anything Arsenal related, players, tactics etc.

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:03 am

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote::lol: Arteta didn’t even pick ESR until he had no choice, it’s chance more than anything!

Arteta is a terrible man manager that’s been proven beyond doubt to most except the most biased of fans.

No one said Saka didn’t have a good season anyway, they said he wasn’t very productive which is true. You’ve painted him out to be some sort of world beater better than Neymar but the figures don’t stack up, you don’t help yourself.



^
something good - not Arteta
anything bad - all Arteta.

Yeah, we know.
:rolleyes:


Have you not seen where we’ve ended up two seasons running under him, oh and how about how our start to the new season has gone?


^ which doesn't mean nothing good happened, obviously.

What I did see in Arteta first 18 months was 16 months where we did pretty well (and won a trophy) and a 2-month disaster.
Lots of good things over that period as well as bad things.

As for Saka, I will take what he says about himself and how Arteta has helped him over your entrenched negativity:
“He has given us so much belief, not just that, but information, advice on how to improve.

“You can see that with the youngsters, they are not just coming in but they are coming in and making their mark, proving they can stay in the team.

“That’s a credit to him.”
Image
jayramfootball
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 13906
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:14 am

Jay, lots of people on the forum have said Saka needs to be more productive, his numbers aren't great, his performances are. Once he gets the numbers to match his performances, we will become world class, as it stands, he needs more end product.

I'm not being horrible stating what I have stated, you can't say he had a brilliant season when he got 1 assist in 4 months !!
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 12313
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:41 am

theHotHead wrote:Jay, lots of people on the forum have said Saka needs to be more productive, his numbers aren't great, his performances are. Once he gets the numbers to match his performances, we will become world class, as it stands, he needs more end product.

I'm not being horrible stating what I have stated, you can't say he had a brilliant season when he got 1 assist in 4 months !!


HH, as you know, as you have argued it yourself when discussing Ozil, assists are not the final arbiter of a player.
Saka creates danger. He does this with intelligent running off the ball and direct play on the play. He can beat players but also is hard to shake off the ball. Much of his game - particularly his positioning has improved a lot. He is already world-class at 20. That is a credit to him and a credit to Arteta as Saka himself pointed out. Productivity in a team is multi-faceted. For example, in terms of goal outcomes from possession per game you will find that Saka was as involved (or more in some instances) than Grealish.

The kid is amazing.
His development, with Arteta as manager, is why he was called up from England.
Now as you know I will give Saka the vast majority of the credit, not Arteta, but for those that think the manager is the key to it all then it's Arteta that needs to get the credit. All the people who try to blame Arteta for everything are the same people who think it's all about the manager. When something good occurs they are left in the impossible position of having to retreat into a 'despite the manager' position or worse downplay our own players success because they can';t face up to any positives. It's quite funny to listen to.
Image
jayramfootball
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 13906
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:21 am

Jay, Saka plays further forward than Ozil, he needs to score/assist more. I don't doubt that he will, but he's not there yet. There is more to just numbers, but I was quite clear, his performances have been excellent, so no criticism from me about that, I just want more end product.

Saka's ability was clear long before Arteta became Head Coach/Manager, he alone controls his development. Its one thing if a player is mediocre and under a manager he turns into top player, I would say the praise should go to the manager, Saka displayed his ability under Emery.
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 12313
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:53 am

Phil71 wrote:Yawn


Tired already? You must be getting old, may I suggest an afternoon siesta?
Özim
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 4699
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:56 am

That’s the point of course, Saka was already looking very good prior to Arteta, as HH rightly points out, when a manager turns a mediocre player into a top player then credit has to be given, but when a player is already on an upward trajectory prior to his arrival then he doesn’t get the same credit.
Özim
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 4699
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:59 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote::lol: Arteta didn’t even pick ESR until he had no choice, it’s chance more than anything!

Arteta is a terrible man manager that’s been proven beyond doubt to most except the most biased of fans.

No one said Saka didn’t have a good season anyway, they said he wasn’t very productive which is true. You’ve painted him out to be some sort of world beater better than Neymar but the figures don’t stack up, you don’t help yourself.



^
something good - not Arteta
anything bad - all Arteta.

Yeah, we know.
:rolleyes:


Have you not seen where we’ve ended up two seasons running under him, oh and how about how our start to the new season has gone?


^ which doesn't mean nothing good happened, obviously.

What I did see in Arteta first 18 months was 16 months where we did pretty well (and won a trophy) and a 2-month disaster.
Lots of good things over that period as well as bad things.

As for Saka, I will take what he says about himself and how Arteta has helped him over your entrenched negativity:
“He has given us so much belief, not just that, but information, advice on how to improve.

“You can see that with the youngsters, they are not just coming in but they are coming in and making their mark, proving they can stay in the team.

“That’s a credit to him.”


He doesn’t do a lot good to be honest, you really have to think about it to find something.

Once again, he didn’t do pretty well for 16 months, it was awful, people were complaining about the performances and play then, even when we were scraping wins, it wasn’t good.

People have eyes and stats really don’t paint the whole picture. It’s not been enjoyable under Arteta for all but a small part of his time with us, it’s been all about breaking records we don’t want to break, ineffective football, inexplicable decisions and terrible man management.

If he’s been good for 16 months people wouldn’t want him out let me tell you.
Özim
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 4699
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:18 am

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote::lol: Arteta didn’t even pick ESR until he had no choice, it’s chance more than anything!

Arteta is a terrible man manager that’s been proven beyond doubt to most except the most biased of fans.

No one said Saka didn’t have a good season anyway, they said he wasn’t very productive which is true. You’ve painted him out to be some sort of world beater better than Neymar but the figures don’t stack up, you don’t help yourself.



^
something good - not Arteta
anything bad - all Arteta.

Yeah, we know.
:rolleyes:


Have you not seen where we’ve ended up two seasons running under him, oh and how about how our start to the new season has gone?


^ which doesn't mean nothing good happened, obviously.

What I did see in Arteta first 18 months was 16 months where we did pretty well (and won a trophy) and a 2-month disaster.
Lots of good things over that period as well as bad things.

As for Saka, I will take what he says about himself and how Arteta has helped him over your entrenched negativity:
“He has given us so much belief, not just that, but information, advice on how to improve.

“You can see that with the youngsters, they are not just coming in but they are coming in and making their mark, proving they can stay in the team.

“That’s a credit to him.”


He doesn’t do a lot good to be honest, you really have to think about it to find something.

Once again, he didn’t do pretty well for 16 months, it was awful, people were complaining about the performances and play then, even when we were scraping wins, it wasn’t good.

People have eyes and stats really don’t paint the whole picture. It’s not been enjoyable under Arteta for all but a small part of his time with us, it’s been all about breaking records we don’t want to break, ineffective football, inexplicable decisions and terrible man management.

If he’s been good for 16 months people wouldn’t want him out let me tell you.


For 16 months our point haul has been pretty good. That is the most important stat.
The other important stat is trophies and we've won one.

Take a way a 2 month meltdown and the first 18 months would rank really well.
As long as we avoid extended bad runs, all is OK.

This thread is about Saka however, and he's excellent and credits his improvement to Arteta.
Image
jayramfootball
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 13906
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Ach » Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:22 am

I'd say finishing 8th twice is the most important stat

This hilarious only 2 bad months crap you're spouting is great though
Ach
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 24135
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:42 am

Ach wrote:I'd say finishing 8th twice is the most important stat

This hilarious only 2 bad months crap you're spouting is great though


First 6 months moved up the league and won the FA Cup.
Start of the next season was not bad at all.
Then a 2 month meltdown where we took 2 from 21 points
Then 6 months good.

That is Arteta's first 18 months. That's the reality of it.

Avoid the part in bold going forward and we're ok.
If we have that run again - then we're not.
Image
jayramfootball
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 13906
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:57 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote::lol: Arteta didn’t even pick ESR until he had no choice, it’s chance more than anything!

Arteta is a terrible man manager that’s been proven beyond doubt to most except the most biased of fans.

No one said Saka didn’t have a good season anyway, they said he wasn’t very productive which is true. You’ve painted him out to be some sort of world beater better than Neymar but the figures don’t stack up, you don’t help yourself.



^
something good - not Arteta
anything bad - all Arteta.

Yeah, we know.
:rolleyes:


Have you not seen where we’ve ended up two seasons running under him, oh and how about how our start to the new season has gone?


^ which doesn't mean nothing good happened, obviously.

What I did see in Arteta first 18 months was 16 months where we did pretty well (and won a trophy) and a 2-month disaster.
Lots of good things over that period as well as bad things.

As for Saka, I will take what he says about himself and how Arteta has helped him over your entrenched negativity:
“He has given us so much belief, not just that, but information, advice on how to improve.

“You can see that with the youngsters, they are not just coming in but they are coming in and making their mark, proving they can stay in the team.

“That’s a credit to him.”


He doesn’t do a lot good to be honest, you really have to think about it to find something.

Once again, he didn’t do pretty well for 16 months, it was awful, people were complaining about the performances and play then, even when we were scraping wins, it wasn’t good.

People have eyes and stats really don’t paint the whole picture. It’s not been enjoyable under Arteta for all but a small part of his time with us, it’s been all about breaking records we don’t want to break, ineffective football, inexplicable decisions and terrible man management.

If he’s been good for 16 months people wouldn’t want him out let me tell you.


For 16 months our point haul has been pretty good. That is the most important stat.
The other important stat is trophies and we've won one.

Take a way a 2 month meltdown and the first 18 months would rank really well.
As long as we avoid extended bad runs, all is OK.

This thread is about Saka however, and he's excellent and credits his improvement to Arteta.


Actually no not in that context, because we ended up 8th, so actually the 16 months which you claim were good (but actually weren’t really) littered with poor results and performances.

Saka has been really good, but as mentioned he was also really good before Arteta arrived so you can’t credit Arteta alone for his progress.
Özim
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 4699
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:00 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Ach wrote:I'd say finishing 8th twice is the most important stat

This hilarious only 2 bad months crap you're spouting is great though


First 6 months moved up the league and won the FA Cup.
Start of the next season was not bad at all.
Then a 2 month meltdown where we took 2 from 21 points
Then 6 months good.

That is Arteta's first 18 months. That's the reality of it.

Avoid the part in bold going forward and we're ok.
If we have that run again - then we're not.


We hardly moved up the league, we were 8th and our form couldn’t get any worse prior to his arrival, I actually think 8th was poor, it was only the FA cup that made it a reasonable season and that helped erase the fact we had a horrible season.

Cup is a bit of a lottery as well, in fancied teams can win it, it’s all about two teams on a particular day, it’s not an accurate measure of a teams or managers ability.

The whole of last season was pretty awful tbh.
Özim
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 4699
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Ach » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:10 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Ach wrote:I'd say finishing 8th twice is the most important stat

This hilarious only 2 bad months crap you're spouting is great though


First 6 months moved up the league and won the FA Cup.
Start of the next season was not bad at all.
Then a 2 month meltdown where we took 2 from 21 points
Then 6 months good.

That is Arteta's first 18 months. That's the reality of it.

Avoid the part in bold going forward and we're ok.
If we have that run again - then we're not.

So why were you so against Arteta before the Europa humiliation v villarreal where the infamous 180 happened and now its the only 2 bad months crap?

Lol
Ach
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 24135
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:12 pm

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Ach wrote:I'd say finishing 8th twice is the most important stat

This hilarious only 2 bad months crap you're spouting is great though


First 6 months moved up the league and won the FA Cup.
Start of the next season was not bad at all.
Then a 2 month meltdown where we took 2 from 21 points
Then 6 months good.

That is Arteta's first 18 months. That's the reality of it.

Avoid the part in bold going forward and we're ok.
If we have that run again - then we're not.


We hardly moved up the league, we were 8th and our form couldn’t get any worse prior to his arrival, I actually think 8th was poor, it was only the FA cup that made it a reasonable season and that helped erase the fact we had a horrible season.

Cup is a bit of a lottery as well, in fancied teams can win it, it’s all about two teams on a particular day, it’s not an accurate measure of a teams or managers ability.

The whole of last season was pretty awful tbh.


Prior to Arteta joining that season we were 11th and had 23 points from 18 games, an average of 1.28 ppg
After Arteta started to the end of the season we were the 6th best team taking 33 points from 20 games, an average of 1.65 ppg. (that 33pts was a single point below what Chelsea did in 4th)

Big improvement and an FA Cup. It was a good first season for Arteta results wise.

The only real issue he had in his first 18 months from a results perspective were the 2 months I have mentioned.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
jayramfootball
Arsène Wenger
Arsène Wenger
 
Posts: 13906
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Santi » Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:13 pm

Don't really care for the 8th in his first half season tbh, he took over from Freddie who didn't get them going after Emery hadn't won a game in almost 2 months. Any recovery was always going to be patchy imo, never mind being hit by a global pandemic 3 months in, and he did grab the FA Cup to soften the blow and sort European football.

Last season, he had his first full season and failed to deliver. 8th wasn't good enough given some of the teams who finished above us and our performances were poor on top. I judge him for that primarily and his preference for Willian and Xhaka, the only excuse he had was that he had a poor squad that was largely inherited.

This season that excuse is gone, if they didn't do enough in the summer then it's on both Edu and Arteta. I don't care anymore if Xhaka plays 38 games...that was their choice by not signing a CM so they live and die by it.

Get the best XI or something close to it playing for 5 games in a row and let's really judge both their skills and their transfers. If it's not some silky football and 4 wins from 5 then get the f**k out.
Image
User avatar
Santi
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 40372
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:11 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arsenal Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests