Merci Arsène

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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:09 pm

StLGooner wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.




But we were supposed to be self sustaining and better off at the new stadium.


You need the right manager to fit not only the club's model but the external model as well and Wenger showed he was not the guy for the job.

theHotHead wrote:But but but, we haven't spent any money!!


Let's not forget how we got the money in the first place. Wenger sacrificed a great deal of his career to be able to spend that amount of money. Unfortunately, the money did not seem to be spent effectively.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:12 pm

StLGooner wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.




But we were supposed to be self sustaining and better off at the new stadium.


I'm am not defending the board but as a matter of fact, when those comments were first made in the early 2000s, it was probably true.

Since then we've had probably 300% in transfer fee inflation and wage inflation, and also gate receipts are now pocket change to clubs, when they used to be a major source of revenue. Now it's all about TV money
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:25 pm

CrimsonGunner11 wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.




But we were supposed to be self sustaining and better off at the new stadium.


You need the right manager to fit not only the club's model but the external model as well and Wenger showed he was not the guy for the job.

theHotHead wrote:But but but, we haven't spent any money!!


Let's not forget how we got the money in the first place. Wenger sacrificed a great deal of his career to be able to spend that amount of money. Unfortunately, the money did not seem to be spent effectively.



And you need the right ownership. Wenger wasn't running the show by himself. Again he needed to go, and I'm glad he's gone, but lets not place all the blame on the man.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:26 pm

UFGN wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.




But we were supposed to be self sustaining and better off at the new stadium.


I'm am not defending the board but as a matter of fact, when those comments were first made in the early 2000s, it was probably true.

Since then we've had probably 300% in transfer fee inflation and wage inflation, and also gate receipts are now pocket change to clubs, when they used to be a major source of revenue. Now it's all about TV money



I agree, it was severely miscalculated by our club.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Phil71 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:32 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.


And how that money was spent by Wenger!

Özil £47m - good
Viviano £1m loan fee - rubbish
Källström 750k loan fee - rubbish
Ajayi 500k - rubbish
Sanchez £42m - good
Chambers £20m - rubbish
Welbeck £18m - ok
Paulista £15m - fair
Debuchy £15m - rubbish
Ospina £4m - fair
Bielik £2.5m - don’t know
Cech £14m - ok
Elneny £12.5m - rubbish
Xhaka £45m - rubbish
Mustafi £41m - rubbish
Perez £20m - rubbish
Asano £4m - rubbish
Holding £3m - good
Aubameyang £60m - good
Lacazette £ £50m - good
Mkhitaryan £34m - rubbish
Mavrapounos £2.1m - don’t know

£189m spent on rubbish. And that’s just the transfer fees. The wages probably equal that.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:35 pm

StLGooner wrote:
CrimsonGunner11 wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
StLGooner wrote:And why don't we have any money now then? Can't blame Wenger anymore. I'm not a Wenger fan or apologist, but its seem pretty clear that it wasn't all his fault. And Wenger protected the board all while making himself look bad.


Probably because we've recently spent a huge amount ...

18/19 - 73m
17/18 - 137m
16/17 - 101m
15/16 - 24m
14/15 - 107m

That's 442m in five years the vast majority by Wenger, during that same period we sold just 182m ... that means we've spent net 260m in five years ... some 200m of that has come straight out of our cash reserves, claiming we don't spend money? Before he left Arsene spent a bloody fortune, and somehow we got worse.




But we were supposed to be self sustaining and better off at the new stadium.


You need the right manager to fit not only the club's model but the external model as well and Wenger showed he was not the guy for the job.

theHotHead wrote:But but but, we haven't spent any money!!


Let's not forget how we got the money in the first place. Wenger sacrificed a great deal of his career to be able to spend that amount of money. Unfortunately, the money did not seem to be spent effectively.



And you need the right ownership. Wenger wasn't running the show by himself. Again he needed to go, and I'm glad he's gone, but lets not place all the blame on the man.


Yep, I agree 100%. The foresight and ability to adapt to the market comes from the suits upstairs and all they did was make the lives of everyone associated with Arsenal difficult
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby ag6789 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:41 pm

Mega rich clubs like ManCity, PSG, need to be regulated. Otherwise, professional clubs like AFC will continue to chase shadows.
There isn't any easy solution really
You can only go so far w/ judicious management, but ultimately money trumps everything.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Angelito » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:46 pm

CrimsonGunner11 wrote:Let's not forget how we got the money in the first place. Wenger sacrificed a great deal of his career to be able to spend that amount of money. Unfortunately, the money did not seem to be spent effectively.


Those figures are inaccurate. For example, I don't remember us spending £75m for Lacazette in 17/18.

Arrivals in 17/18 - £108m
    Lacazette, Aubameyang, Mavropanos, Mkhi (Swap Deal)

Departures in 17/18 - £110m
    Chamberlain, Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Szczesny, Gabriel, Alexis (Swap Deal)

Net spend: -£2m



Arrivals in 16/17 - £92m*
    Xhaka, Mustafi, Lucas, Asano, Holding

Departures in 16/17 - £6m
    Gnabry, Silva

Net spend = £86m

*Going by the reported rate of £35m each for Xhaka and Mustafi.



Arrivals in 15/16 - £19m*
    Cech, Elneny

Departures in 15/16 - £2m
    Podolski

Net spend: £17m

*Going by the reported rate of £7m for Elneny.



Arrivals in 14/15 - £97m
    Alexis, Welbeck, Chambers, Debuchy, Gabriel, Ospina, Bielik

Departures in 14/15 - £18m
    Vermaelen, Djourou, Miquel, Eisfeld

Net spend: £79m



Arrivals in 13/14 - £42m
    Ozil, Viviano (Loan), Kallstrom (Loan)

Departures in 13/14 - £12m
    Gervinho, Frimpong, Mannone

Net spend: £30m


In Wenger's final five seasons:

Gross spend: £356m
Net spend: £214m



In the same time-frame (13/14-17/18), the gross spending of other clubs:

1. Man City ~ £700m
2. Man United ~ £650m
3. Chelsea ~ £550m
4. Liverpool ~ £450m
5. Arsenal ~ £356m
6. Spurs ~ £350m
7. Everton ~ £300m
8. Leicester ~ £210m

All conservative approximations.

Look at the difference between what City/United spent and what Arsenal spent during his final five seasons. Look at the difference between a club like Liverpool and us, for instance.

In the same time-frame, trophies won:

    Man City: 5 (2x Prem, 3 LCs)
    Chelsea: 4 (2x Prem, FA Cup, LC)
    Arsenal: 3 (3x FA Cup)
    Man United: 3 (EL, FA Cup, LC)
    Leicester: 1 (Prem)
    Liverpool: :grouphug:
    Spurs: :grouphug:
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby ag6789 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:16 pm

Gives us a lot of hope, when we see the Spuds, counting fingers in the dark, 58 and going on, and L'POOL 29 and counting.
Meanwhile, we got 7FAs and 3 Prem and 2 Prems from GG too. Plus a few more. '71( I'm no statistician).
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:00 pm

Angelito wrote:
CrimsonGunner11 wrote:Let's not forget how we got the money in the first place. Wenger sacrificed a great deal of his career to be able to spend that amount of money. Unfortunately, the money did not seem to be spent effectively.


Those figures are inaccurate. For example, I don't remember us spending £75m for Lacazette in 17/18.

Arrivals in 17/18 - £108m
    Lacazette, Aubameyang, Mavropanos, Mkhi (Swap Deal)

Departures in 17/18 - £110m
    Chamberlain, Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Szczesny, Gabriel, Alexis (Swap Deal)

Net spend: -£2m



Arrivals in 16/17 - £92m*
    Xhaka, Mustafi, Lucas, Asano, Holding

Departures in 16/17 - £6m
    Gnabry, Silva

Net spend = £86m

*Going by the reported rate of £35m each for Xhaka and Mustafi.



Arrivals in 15/16 - £19m*
    Cech, Elneny

Departures in 15/16 - £2m
    Podolski

Net spend: £17m

*Going by the reported rate of £7m for Elneny.



Arrivals in 14/15 - £97m
    Alexis, Welbeck, Chambers, Debuchy, Gabriel, Ospina, Bielik

Departures in 14/15 - £18m
    Vermaelen, Djourou, Miquel, Eisfeld

Net spend: £79m



Arrivals in 13/14 - £42m
    Ozil, Viviano (Loan), Kallstrom (Loan)

Departures in 13/14 - £12m
    Gervinho, Frimpong, Mannone

Net spend: £30m


In Wenger's final five seasons:

Gross spend: £356m
Net spend: £214m



In the same time-frame (13/14-17/18), the gross spending of other clubs:

1. Man City ~ £700m
2. Man United ~ £650m
3. Chelsea ~ £550m
4. Liverpool ~ £450m
5. Arsenal ~ £356m
6. Spurs ~ £350m
7. Everton ~ £300m
8. Leicester ~ £210m

All conservative approximations.

Look at the difference between what City/United spent and what Arsenal spent during his final five seasons. Look at the difference between a club like Liverpool and us, for instance.

In the same time-frame, trophies won:

    Man City: 5 (2x Prem, 3 LCs)
    Chelsea: 4 (2x Prem, FA Cup, LC)
    Arsenal: 3 (3x FA Cup)
    Man United: 3 (EL, FA Cup, LC)
    Leicester: 1 (Prem)
    Liverpool: :grouphug:
    Spurs: :grouphug:


Thanks for posting this because it highlights exactly the kind of conditions the manager of Arsenal football club needs to work under. Wenger had his flaws but he did ok considering the circumstances.

Also FWIW, I didn’t bother to check the accuracy of any numbers because I knew we spent more than usual during Wenger’s final years.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby theHotHead » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:44 pm

Wenger is not solely to blame but he holds the majority of the blame, 95% of it. He DID spend money, he went on some stupid fantasy, in fact fantasies!! First he broke up the Invincibles prematurely to become Barca Lite which failed. Then he embarked on his Socialism project paying players like Almunia, Bendtner and Denilson et al £50k per week - which made our wage bill shoot up. After that it was abject failure which - bizarrely landed us 3 FA Cups!!

The majority of the blame lies with Wenger and his stupid decisions, tactical naivety and bare faced stubborness/delusion. You cannot blame anyone else for these things, Kroenke let him run the club how he saw fit. Wenger mismanged so many contract renewals its a joke, the most obvious ones being Ramsey, Sanchez, Ozil and, lets not forget, Walcott and his £100k per week contract.

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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:38 pm

theHotHead wrote:Wenger is not solely to blame but he holds the majority of the blame, 95% of it. He DID spend money, he went on some stupid fantasy, in fact fantasies!! First he broke up the Invincibles prematurely to become Barca Lite which failed. Then he embarked on his Socialism project paying players like Almunia, Bendtner and Denilson et al £50k per week - which made our wage bill shoot up. After that it was abject failure which - bizarrely landed us 3 FA Cups!!

The majority of the blame lies with Wenger and his stupid decisions, tactical naivety and bare faced stubborness/delusion. You cannot blame anyone else for these things,


If you’re meeting your objectives, you’re doing your job; it’s that simple. You can blame Wenger for losing games and whatever goes wrong on the pitch but if fans want major trophies but there is no urge to win those trophies, you cannot put the majority of the blame on Wenger.

theHotHead wrote:Kroenke let him run the club how he saw fit.

You certainly cannot blame Wenger for this.

theHotHead wrote:Wenger mismanged so many contract renewals its a joke, the most obvious ones being Ramsey, Sanchez, Ozil and, lets not forget, Walcott and his £100k per week contract.


I refuse to believe that Wenger was solely responsible for contracts. And even if he was, he surely wasnt qualified/the best man at the club to be handling those kind of things. Again, something you cannot blame Wenger for.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Suprnova » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:49 am

Some of this stuff here is very black and white, blaming the guy you see, rather than the people you don't see.

Granted in his second decade he spent a 'average for the time' amount of money on majority flops, some big names and some players who should have been better than they were, but all of them were cheapy deals outside of Ozil and the panic buys of Auba and Mkhy when Sanchez left.

My opinion still stays on the fence, nobody can say 'fact' it was Wengers fault.

If you weigh up who he bought prior to maybe 2007? then do your good and bad lists...ie Anelka, Henry, Gilberto, Lehmann, Lauren, Campbell, Toure, Petit, Ljungberg, Overmars, Pires, he kinda enforced the Vieira deal.....ie star after star, he pretty much bought the entire best team this country has ever seen, the invincible's, with the main exception being Bergkamp, with the odd Kaba Diawara and Igor Stepanovs, and the odd Francis jeffers and Richard Wright who should have been much better, this is the gamble of signing players.

Its so easy to focus on the negatives and discounting the best manager that ever went near this club. he won three Premier League titles, seven FA Cups and seven Community Shields, most of which in his first decade with us, and you shit all over his legacy? imagine where we would have been if Bruce Rioch continued his 'vision' after the George Graham bung and 12th place season.

1 minute he was signing Pires to replace Overmars, Henry to replace Anelka, Lehmann to replace Seaman, Toure and Campbell to replace Adams and Bould/Keown, GIlberto to replace Petit....then after he was signing kids and shit to replace those when they moved on/retired, ie Senderos and Djourou to replace Campbell and Toure ffs.

You don't suddenly get 'shit' overnight, unless something is forcing you to become shit, you could argue David Dein leaving was a factor, but I don't think anyone can back it up, because it coincided with the 800m? debt of the Ashburton Grove project, man Arsene was even pre-warning us in his own way, look back over old interviews, it could very well be a combination, but whilst we are signing the likes of Stephan Lichtsteiner aged 34, it does not seem like a lot has changed.

In fact i recall reading a 'Daily Mirror Arsene quote' at work in what 2005? saying that the debt would not be paid until 2018?? and that we would focus on internal/youth and won't be making big buys, yes it was the mirror, but that's what i read and that's all i can judge on.

You don't suddenly go from tons of super shrewd signings and tons of silverware, which you achieved by yourself minus maybe Adams, Wright and Bergkamp, to signing Bendtners, Denilsons and the rest of the crap, I think he was working on who was the cheapest option on the least wages every time because of the stadium move etc, ie potential wonderkids, fallen stars and bargain bin crap.

Yes the Chelshit and Man Shitty stuff happened, that was unavoidable, but that is kinda like playing a game on cheat mode, here you go, super shit relegation fodder, heres 300m to spend every season and we will overpay all of the players, who cares about profit.

You will never know unless a inside grass and reports it, its easy to blame the guy who is the media face of the company.

Poch may be in the same boat with the Spuds very soon, time will tell.

If Emery gets Champions League football with this mess and maybe the Europa league, then does it again next season, then i may start swaying towards the general negative opinion of Le Professor, until then i refuse to slate the man when its such a 'grey area' with nothing factual and so many factors, 49-0.

I know one thing, give Klopp 'Emerys role' and see how he does, give Guardiola the money Wenger had to work with and the same working conditions and see how these 'special' managers do, I think you'll find Klopp has spent 400+m£ over the last few years and won nothing.

Again, if you disagree, tell me why, don't say 'you're talking bolix mate' (its 'bollocks' mate, just saying) tell me honestly why you disagree with these points and why your posts are 'facts' or 'statements' as I have had said previously.

Whether it is taken as 'unpopolar or polarizing' etc, its just a passionate opinion from a attentive fan who thinks outside of the box, so excuse my 'nicety's'.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby theHotHead » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:48 am

Crimson, he met his objectives, but we are a football club so as fans he did not! Lets play Devil's Advocate, fine he met his objectives and we didn't win a trophy for ages. He also eroded the squad quality by taking us down a route we didn't need to go down.

I was kinda ok with Barca Lite, we played good football. But what was unacceptable were the numerous ass whoopings we used to get because Wenger paid no attention to the offensive abilities of opposing teams. It is widely know that Wenger did zero or very little defensive coaching of the team.

It shows a level of arrogance only a deluded muppet would have! 8 f***ing 2 against Man U!! Football had changed, Wenger failed to change his methods with the times but others did - SAF being a prime example until he left the club. It has nothing to do with spending money, it has nothing to do with Wenger's objectives.

Devil's Advocate time again. So he wanted to attract the best young players so he adopts the socialist plan, to help secure our future. Young players and the not so good players were given big wages. This led to the second period of failure where Wenger refused to buy established players because they would hinder the development of the kids. Thats fine and noble.

The problem is, up until then the only home grown players that Wenger developed that were any good was Ashley Cole. Fabregas, Anelka and RVP did not come through our youth system. To date the only decent players Wenger developed that turned out any good were Cole and Wilshere - and we all know how Wilshere turned out.

Its been a succession of potential but no success. Not a single young player turned out to be any good, not Arsenal level good. It was a wasted period but stubborn Wenger put all his chips in. When we needed a keeper we had Almunia and Fab battling to be clutz of the week. Shezza was coming through but he too had clutz problems. Rather than steady the ship and spend £4m on Schwarzer he offered a measly £2m.

None of the above is the fault of the owner, Wenger's objectives or the fans, it is ALL Wenger, making stupid mistakes. Barca Lite would've worked if Wenger got the team to defend once in a while. The Socialist project would've worked if Wenger bought some men to augment with the team. Stubborn and arrogant, Wenger's biggest flaws and the reason he achieved far less than he should've.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CrimsonGunner11 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:50 pm

theHotHead wrote:Crimson, he met his objectives, but we are a football club so as fans he did not! Lets play Devil's Advocate, fine he met his objectives and we didn't win a trophy for ages. He also eroded the squad quality by taking us down a route we didn't need to go down.

I was kinda ok with Barca Lite, we played good football. But what was unacceptable were the numerous ass whoopings we used to get because Wenger paid no attention to the offensive abilities of opposing teams. It is widely know that Wenger did zero or very little defensive coaching of the team.

It shows a level of arrogance only a deluded muppet would have! 8 f***ing 2 against Man U!! Football had changed, Wenger failed to change his methods with the times but others did - SAF being a prime example until he left the club. It has nothing to do with spending money, it has nothing to do with Wenger's objectives.

Devil's Advocate time again. So he wanted to attract the best young players so he adopts the socialist plan, to help secure our future. Young players and the not so good players were given big wages. This led to the second period of failure where Wenger refused to buy established players because they would hinder the development of the kids. Thats fine and noble.

The problem is, up until then the only home grown players that Wenger developed that were any good was Ashley Cole. Fabregas, Anelka and RVP did not come through our youth system. To date the only decent players Wenger developed that turned out any good were Cole and Wilshere - and we all know how Wilshere turned out.

Its been a succession of potential but no success. Not a single young player turned out to be any good, not Arsenal level good. It was a wasted period but stubborn Wenger put all his chips in. When we needed a keeper we had Almunia and Fab battling to be clutz of the week. Shezza was coming through but he too had clutz problems. Rather than steady the ship and spend £4m on Schwarzer he offered a measly £2m.

None of the above is the fault of the owner, Wenger's objectives or the fans, it is ALL Wenger, making stupid mistakes. Barca Lite would've worked if Wenger got the team to defend once in a while. The Socialist project would've worked if Wenger bought some men to augment with the team. Stubborn and arrogant, Wenger's biggest flaws and the reason he achieved far less than he should've.


Question for you HotHead: How do you think Wenger left the club? Did he step down or was he fired?

I believe know what your answer will be but even if it’s not what I an expecting, I’ll respond to your post with how I think most people would answer this question in mind.

If Wenger was a cancer to the club as you imply, then whoever ultimately decided his time was up willingly let the disease spread. If I was in charge, Wenger would have been gone a few years before he left (or at least I would have supported him better); If UFGN was in charge Wenger would have been gone ages ago; and I assume if you were in charge, Wenger would have been removed earlier than he was.

If the people that ultimately let Wenger go were not ready to support Wenger properly, then, as businessmen, the least they could have done is know the right time to let him go. Leaving it late as they did cost us significantly; Most likely a better manager, more CL football, a better team, financially, etc.

As I said earlier, you can blame Wenger for his decisions regarding whatever goes wrong on the pitch but if you or anyone is unhappy with the contracts, the desire to win major trophies, or the current financial state (some of which you seem to be accusing Wenger of) then that’s ultimately on the board and the owner. Yes Wenger’s decisions on the pitch affects all of this, but if the people in charge of the well being of the club are satisfied with what the manager is doing, then they have no one else to blame but themselves for letting the bad decisions on the pitch go unpunished for so long.
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CrimsonGunner11
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