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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:09 am

swipe right wrote: Thanks for the detailed response. Appreciated. I am surprised to see these numbers particularly between the time Henry left and Ozil arrived. Who were the top earners? Fabregas at 135k. Nasri was only on 90k when City poached him and I think Ades new deal was only 100k. RVP was not earning much all the way till the end. So where were the salaries going? I assume it was giving a whole heap of u23s pro deals. Any thoughts there?


It's all very odd, unlike a lot of clubs we've always included our management and support staff costs in player salaries, whilst all clubs do that now they didn't ten years ago, We know Wonger was on a huge wage, maybe that applied to all the support team as well. Because accounts don't include salary breakdowns that's all a bit of a guess. You could be right that we gave large contracts to the youngsters, certainly a lot of them hung around for many years getting almost no first team playing time, that would indicate they were being well payed.

Truth is we'll probably never know. My opinion for what it's worth is that Wonger believed what he said about player contracts losing significance and thus salaries not transfer costs would become all important. Whilst he had a point on salaries going up he was disastrously wrong on transfer fees. His mindset was reflected in us focusing all our efforts on paying large salaries whilst not spending heavily in a transfer market that Wonger wrongly believed would collapse. When the opposite happened the TV deal kicked in and and the transfer market went crazy we were left behind. Unlike many of our rivals, who had packed their squads with high value players on reasonable contracts, we ended up with low value players on huge contracts ... it wasn't until 2013/14 when the Board took over transfers that Wengernomics started it's slow death.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby UFGN » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:04 am

Interest: waning wrote:2011 is when I would pinpoint it, too.

Although I do recall the end of the 2009/2010 season being almost as disastrous as the 2011 ending.

Remember that 3-2 loss to Wigan after being 2-0 up, for instance?


I was there.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby LMAO » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:03 am

UFGN wrote:
Interest: waning wrote:2011 is when I would pinpoint it, too.

Although I do recall the end of the 2009/2010 season being almost as disastrous as the 2011 ending.

Remember that 3-2 loss to Wigan after being 2-0 up, for instance?


I was there.


What flavor bleach did you enjoy afterwards?
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby UFGN » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:09 am

LMAO wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Interest: waning wrote:2011 is when I would pinpoint it, too.

Although I do recall the end of the 2009/2010 season being almost as disastrous as the 2011 ending.

Remember that 3-2 loss to Wigan after being 2-0 up, for instance?


I was there.


What flavor bleach did you enjoy afterwards?


I've seen some shockers but that was one of the very worst

Was also at Newcastle for the 4-4 draw

And at Sunderland to watch us get knocked out of the FA Cup

And at Nottingham Forest last year
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Va-Va-Voom » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:37 am

You're a fvcking jinx
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby LMAO » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:23 am

Va-Va-Voom wrote:You're a fvcking jinx


Yeah maybe it wasn't Wenger after all :think:
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:43 am

swipe right wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
swipe right wrote: Share some numbers please. Don’t see how we could have been in the top four salary wise during the 2006-16 time-frame.


You should know the history, how can you keep debating when you don't know the facts? We have only been out of the top four wage payers four times in the last fifteen years ... we slightly 'under-perform' on position in table versus wages, we are not alone in that all the old top four Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea are slightly under, that's entirely due to Spurs being well over, and that one-off Leicester season ....

Here's our comparative wages spend, the first position, and our comparative net transfer spend the second position ...

2002/3 - 2nd - 8th
2003/4 - 3rd - 14th
2004/5 - 3rd - 2nd
2005/6 - 3rd - 14th
2006/7 - 3rd - 9th
2007/8 - 3rd - 20th
2008/9 - 4th - 8th
2009/10 - 4th - 16th
2010/11 - 5th - 18th
2011/12 - 5th - 10th
2012/13 - 4th - 17th
2013/14 - 4th - 3rd

2014/15 - 4th - 2nd
2015/16 - 5th - 5th
2016/17 - 4th - 3rd
2017/18 - 5th - 18th
2018/19 - 5th - 5th (summer only)

As you can see we were massively under-spending on transfers right up until 2013/14 when desperation cash was thrown around to stop the rot ... to little to late as it turned out. What these numbers show is that while the squad was regressing over a decade, when every year at least 10 clubs were spending more money on better players than us, we still somehow managed to pay our lesser players even more money in salaries ...

If you look at 2007-2014 we spent almost nothing on net transfers for six years, yet somehow our wages bill increased by a greater amount than 17 of our rivals, how did that even happen? the money certainly didn't go on new players so just where did it go? ..... stupidly expensive long term socialism based contracts on a whole bunch of injured, lazy, just plain average players that's where .... a problem that we are still dealing with today.

Thanks for the detailed response. Appreciated. I am surprised to see these numbers particularly between the time Henry left and Ozil arrived. Who were the top earners? Fabregas at 135k. Nasri was only on 90k when City poached him and I think Ades new deal was only 100k. RVP was not earning much all the way till the end. So where were the salaries going? I assume it was giving a whole heap of u23s pro deals. Any thoughts there?

We know exactly where the wages went, it went on Wenger's "socialist" policy. His policy was to pay all of the young players much higher wages, closer to the top earners. Its why the likes of Denilson and Bendtner were on £50k per week instead of the £20k max they should have been on. It meant the delta between the highest and lowest paid players was not so large

That's why our wage bill was so high.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Angelito » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:17 am

LMAO wrote:
Va-Va-Voom wrote:You're a fvcking jinx


Yeah maybe it wasn't Wenger after all :think:


Overpaying for young talents and selling them for profits seems to be the mantra now.

Wonder who thought that it was the only way to survive in an environment dominated by sugar daddy owners.

:think:
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby swipe right » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:42 pm

We.

Want.

Wenger.

Back.

Say we want Wenger back!
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby Angelito » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:27 pm

swipe right wrote:We.

Want.

Simeone.

Say we want Simeone!
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Think we need a new owner first. Not sure a coaching change would change much.
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby swipe right » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:56 pm

Angelito wrote:
swipe right wrote:We.

Want.

Simeone.

Say we want Simeone!

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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby CynicalGooner » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:57 pm

Angelito wrote:
LMAO wrote:
Va-Va-Voom wrote:You're a fvcking jinx


Yeah maybe it wasn't Wenger after all :think:


Overpaying for young talents and selling them for profits seems to be the mantra now.

Wonder who thought that it was the only way to survive in an environment dominated by sugar daddy owners.

:think:

The guy you're talking about largely overpaid for young pubbers and then kept them for 3 years too long before generally releasing them for free. Soooooo, nah
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby swipe right » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:03 pm

CynicalGooner wrote:
Angelito wrote:
LMAO wrote:
Va-Va-Voom wrote:You're a fvcking jinx


Yeah maybe it wasn't Wenger after all :think:


Overpaying for young talents and selling them for profits seems to be the mantra now.

Wonder who thought that it was the only way to survive in an environment dominated by sugar daddy owners.

:think:

The guy you're talking about largely overpaid for young pubbers and then kept them for 3 years too long before generally releasing them for free. Soooooo, nah

So vieira, Anelka, Henry, piers, cole, fabregas, rvp, nasri, Ade, were pubbers?
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Re: Merci Arsène

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:51 pm

swipe right wrote: So vieira, Anelka, Henry, piers, cole, fabregas, rvp, nasri, Ade, were pubbers?


Look at your own post, then consider who was in charge of recruitment at Arsenal during that time. Once you've done that look at your list again and then consider what's missing .... where are all the signings from the last decade? A decade when Arsene had full control of all transfers .... make the same list from 2007-17 and the vast majority of these were indeed pubbers

Denilson, Botelho, Diarra, Eduardo, Silvestere, Bischoff, Silva, Chamakh, Gervinho, Santos, Park, Podolski, Viviano, Debuchy, Paulista. Welbeck, Chambers, Elneny

Nobody is denying that in his first decade Wonger was top drawer, but to simply forget how his socialist transfer and contract policy dragged us down to where we are today, that's revisionist history at it's finest ......
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