Konstantinos Mavropanos

All football talk from anywhere except The UK. Includes Champions League, Europa Cup, transfer news and general World Football chat.

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby Salibatelli » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:00 pm

Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.
Salibatelli
Member of the Year 2023
Member of the Year 2023
 
Posts: 16301
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:05 pm

Özim wrote:Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.


Neither are suited to the role they have brought White in to do.
The only people who think it's White OR Saliba/ White OR Mavropanos really have not been paying much attention to either the games we play or what the club has said.


Saliba is competing with Mavropanos to be a backup to Gabriel - or maybe come into the side if we decide to play 5 at the back - in which case they will both be competing with Holding.
The way it looks is that Saliba will be sold and Mavropanos will make it.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:07 pm

We should have mavro and saliba as back up to gabriel and white. Four top CBs!
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
User avatar
Arsenal Tone
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 40751
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:09 pm

Arsenal Tone wrote:We should have mavro and saliba as back up to gabriel and white. Four top CBs!


This I would not be against at all.
I think both are better than Holding. Chambers and Mari.

But were they really ready in the Summer - apparently not.
It's looking like a very good decision to loan them out to get playing time and build their confidence - but also a risk that Gabriel, White and Tomiyasu remain injury-free. We're in trouble if we have to see Holding, Chambers or Mari again.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:37 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.


Neither are suited to the role they have brought White in to do.
The only people who think it's White OR Saliba/ White OR Mavropanos really have not been paying much attention to either the games we play or what the club has said.


Saliba is competing with Mavropanos to be a backup to Gabriel - or maybe come into the side if we decide to play 5 at the back - in which case they will both be competing with Holding.
The way it looks is that Saliba will be sold and Mavropanos will make it.

Mate White is in direct conpetition with Saliba, both ball playing CBs on the right side.
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster of the Month
Poster of the Month
 
Posts: 20281
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:49 pm

theHotHead wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.


Neither are suited to the role they have brought White in to do.
The only people who think it's White OR Saliba/ White OR Mavropanos really have not been paying much attention to either the games we play or what the club has said.


Saliba is competing with Mavropanos to be a backup to Gabriel - or maybe come into the side if we decide to play 5 at the back - in which case they will both be competing with Holding.
The way it looks is that Saliba will be sold and Mavropanos will make it.

Mate White is in direct conpetition with Saliba, both ball playing CBs on the right side.


That is not the role White is playing at all.
Right now when we have possession there is a very clear tactical set-up, with White shifting centrally, Gabriel on the left of him and Tomiyasu cutting in on the right to form a back 3. Tierney shifts further forward.
White is effectively quarterbacking from there - he's the voice and he directs both Tomiyasu and Gabriel.

White is the man calling the plays either long or through the lines.

Saliba is wholly inadequate to play that role.
His passing is mainly short - from wider right - into a midfield. Very simple passing, not often through the lines.
His 'long' passing is not penetrative.
He does carry the ball into midfield, but White is not being asked to do that right now from his central position
Saliba's long passing either down the flank or switching play is not of the best quality (on the rare occasion he tries it)

This is White's role at this time, but he also has the versatility that Saliba simply doesn't.
There are several options with White.

There is a good article here discussing it (shout out to this guy for getting it right in terms of how White has started for us).
https://paininthearsenal.com/2021/09/03 ... -tomiyasu/

IF Saliba manages to get a squad number for us - and it's a big if - he will be competing with Gabriel mainly - or perhaps getting time in games where we switch things around against certain opposition. He certainly won't get the main role in the centre to set up attacks.

More than likely we will sell him. He's coming back with 1 year (maybe 2) left on his contract and he won't be getting much game time even if he does get a squad number (barring injuries). He's never even been seen in terms of his ball playing skills in the PL, whilst White is already one of the best in the league in that area.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby Salibatelli » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:08 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.


Neither are suited to the role they have brought White in to do.
The only people who think it's White OR Saliba/ White OR Mavropanos really have not been paying much attention to either the games we play or what the club has said.


Saliba is competing with Mavropanos to be a backup to Gabriel - or maybe come into the side if we decide to play 5 at the back - in which case they will both be competing with Holding.
The way it looks is that Saliba will be sold and Mavropanos will make it.


I doubt it since Mavropanos is as good as sold already. As for Saliba, he won’t be competing with Holding as the guy isn’t good enough.

I think this plan you’re talking about won’t really be relevant anymore once Arteta gets the boot, something I expect will happen this season at some point.
Salibatelli
Member of the Year 2023
Member of the Year 2023
 
Posts: 16301
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:14 pm

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:Except that White shouldn’t even be here, we had two ready made CBS we could have used.

Instead we blew 50 million on a CB who isn’t even world class and still has a lot to learn.

The lack of common sense is shocking.


Neither are suited to the role they have brought White in to do.
The only people who think it's White OR Saliba/ White OR Mavropanos really have not been paying much attention to either the games we play or what the club has said.


Saliba is competing with Mavropanos to be a backup to Gabriel - or maybe come into the side if we decide to play 5 at the back - in which case they will both be competing with Holding.
The way it looks is that Saliba will be sold and Mavropanos will make it.


I doubt it since Mavropanos is as good as sold already. As for Saliba, he won’t be competing with Holding as the guy isn’t good enough.

I think this plan you’re talking about won’t really be relevant anymore once Arteta gets the boot, something I expect will happen this season at some point.


If the option is taken up and Mavropanos leaves, then we'll need to buy a new CB, or maybe Saliba resigns and takes the backup role (not sure but I think his contract ends in 2024)
Either way we are going to need a new CB because the thought of Holding/Chambers/Mari playing does not fill me with joy.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:06 pm

LOL Jay, don't overthink it, its just football. We are playing 4 at the back, both Ben White and William Saliba are ball playing right footed CBs. Saliba CAN play any role a CB plays in any system because he knows when to go to ground and when to stand up, he can bring the ball out or pass it out. In fact:

Screenshot 2021-10-17 at 20.02.16.png


Screenshot 2021-10-17 at 20.02.34.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster of the Month
Poster of the Month
 
Posts: 20281
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:09 pm

The stats above suggest Saliba plays more progressive passes than White has, in the past 365 days per 90 mins.
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster of the Month
Poster of the Month
 
Posts: 20281
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:32 pm

theHotHead wrote:The stats above suggest Saliba plays more progressive passes than White has, in the past 365 days per 90 mins.


Please do not give me comparisons between the PL and the French league.

But even looking at your stats source:

> White plays the ball in behind the defensive line into space at a rate 2.5 times that of Saliba per game.
> He's nearly double at passes that lead to shots on goal per 90
> He has nearly 5 times the number of passes per 90 into the opponent's penalty box
> White is also significantly better at pressuring and winning possession, blocking passing lanes, tackling

Whites passes lead to more for his team and this in the PL as compared to the French League.
Again, stats compared between leagues are actually pretty meaningless, but even in a harder league the value of White's passing to the team is higher - using your stats, not mine

If and when Saliba makes it to the level of playing in the PL, we'll see if he can up his numbers to what White is doing.
Before then I would like to see his passing be more dangerous for the opponents in the French league - safe passing and high percentage completion rates are not the order of the day.

By the way - this is the reason Saliba has been underwhelming this season.
His passing is very safe and not very dangerous for the opposition and his defensive numbers are really quite poor.
That's why you see a lot of stats posted about his pass completion rate.

White is not what you would call a defender that will win a lot of tackles, pressures etc... he's a ball-playing defender who creates danger with his passes, but he's still getting better defensive numbers than Saliba as well as creating far more danger with his passing - all in a much tougher league.

Right now Saliba is not using his size and strength well enough.
There are 2 MAJOR flaws that he needs to overcome:
1) His positioning is poor - that is why his tackles and headers won are so low - it's not that he can;t tackle, he's just not in good positions
2) His agility is poor - not his speed (he's fast) - but his change of direction is Mertesacker like. He's Merts without the intelligence to be in the right place.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:26 pm

Put Rob Holding in League 1 and he'd get decent stats too!
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
User avatar
Arsenal Tone
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 40751
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby swipe right » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:01 pm

Holding and Chambers are vastly more experienced than White and on evidence more talented too. As Wenger once said, I’m sorry he didn’t cost 50 million.
swipe right
Dennis Bergkamp
Dennis Bergkamp
 
Posts: 7701
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:05 am

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:55 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:The stats above suggest Saliba plays more progressive passes than White has, in the past 365 days per 90 mins.


Please do not give me comparisons between the PL and the French league.

But even looking at your stats source:

> White plays the ball in behind the defensive line into space at a rate 2.5 times that of Saliba per game.
> He's nearly double at passes that lead to shots on goal per 90
> He has nearly 5 times the number of passes per 90 into the opponent's penalty box
> White is also significantly better at pressuring and winning possession, blocking passing lanes, tackling

Whites passes lead to more for his team and this in the PL as compared to the French League.
Again, stats compared between leagues are actually pretty meaningless, but even in a harder league the value of White's passing to the team is higher - using your stats, not mine

If and when Saliba makes it to the level of playing in the PL, we'll see if he can up his numbers to what White is doing.
Before then I would like to see his passing be more dangerous for the opponents in the French league - safe passing and high percentage completion rates are not the order of the day.

By the way - this is the reason Saliba has been underwhelming this season.
His passing is very safe and not very dangerous for the opposition and his defensive numbers are really quite poor.
That's why you see a lot of stats posted about his pass completion rate.

White is not what you would call a defender that will win a lot of tackles, pressures etc... he's a ball-playing defender who creates danger with his passes, but he's still getting better defensive numbers than Saliba as well as creating far more danger with his passing - all in a much tougher league.

Right now Saliba is not using his size and strength well enough.
There are 2 MAJOR flaws that he needs to overcome:
1) His positioning is poor - that is why his tackles and headers won are so low - it's not that he can;t tackle, he's just not in good positions
2) His agility is poor - not his speed (he's fast) - but his change of direction is Mertesacker like. He's Merts without the intelligence to be in the right place.

Huh?????

Where did you get that interpretation from ???? Not sure how you came to your conclusions. Bare stats, Saliba has better numbers in I reckon 80% of them.

The full export of data is in the Excel file attached.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
theHotHead
Poster of the Month
Poster of the Month
 
Posts: 20281
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Konstantinos Mavropanos (on loan - VfB Stuttgart)

Postby jayramfootball » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:02 pm

theHotHead wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:The stats above suggest Saliba plays more progressive passes than White has, in the past 365 days per 90 mins.


Please do not give me comparisons between the PL and the French league.

But even looking at your stats source:

> White plays the ball in behind the defensive line into space at a rate 2.5 times that of Saliba per game.
> He's nearly double at passes that lead to shots on goal per 90
> He has nearly 5 times the number of passes per 90 into the opponent's penalty box
> White is also significantly better at pressuring and winning possession, blocking passing lanes, tackling

Whites passes lead to more for his team and this in the PL as compared to the French League.
Again, stats compared between leagues are actually pretty meaningless, but even in a harder league the value of White's passing to the team is higher - using your stats, not mine

If and when Saliba makes it to the level of playing in the PL, we'll see if he can up his numbers to what White is doing.
Before then I would like to see his passing be more dangerous for the opponents in the French league - safe passing and high percentage completion rates are not the order of the day.

By the way - this is the reason Saliba has been underwhelming this season.
His passing is very safe and not very dangerous for the opposition and his defensive numbers are really quite poor.
That's why you see a lot of stats posted about his pass completion rate.

White is not what you would call a defender that will win a lot of tackles, pressures etc... he's a ball-playing defender who creates danger with his passes, but he's still getting better defensive numbers than Saliba as well as creating far more danger with his passing - all in a much tougher league.

Right now Saliba is not using his size and strength well enough.
There are 2 MAJOR flaws that he needs to overcome:
1) His positioning is poor - that is why his tackles and headers won are so low - it's not that he can;t tackle, he's just not in good positions
2) His agility is poor - not his speed (he's fast) - but his change of direction is Mertesacker like. He's Merts without the intelligence to be in the right place.

Huh?????

Where did you get that interpretation from ???? Not sure how you came to your conclusions. Bare stats, Saliba has better numbers in I reckon 80% of them.

The full export of data is in the Excel file attached.


These points are correct:

> White plays the ball in behind the defensive line into space at a rate 2.5 times that of Saliba per game.
> He's nearly double at passes that lead to shots on goal per 90
> He has nearly 5 times the number of passes per 90 into the opponent's penalty box

Passing without an outcome is not a sign of being a good passer of the ball.
It just means you make a lot easy passes.
Xhaka would look better than some world-class players if you used just passing as a measure, regardless of how dangerous those passes were to the opposition.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27017
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

PreviousNext

Return to World Football

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests