Joe Willock

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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Santi » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:33 pm

Özim wrote:
Santi wrote:But what big chance did he give martinelli? That’s what I’m saying, he didn’t do anything most managers don’t do. Only guendouzi who you then picked out got some ridiculous amount of game time. I’m not talking about how good or bad they are.

The others got sub apps and b comps the same as they are under Arteta.


Arteta hardly gives Martinelli any game time, yet he looks like one of the liveliest players and one of the most likely to make things happen.

Arteta seems to have some weird dislike for some players and I don’t understand why, players like Saliba, Martinelli, Guendouzi, Balogun, Nelson, Mavropanos seem to get treated differently from certain others.

In the end it’s not very clever as he’s just speeding up how far he is from the sack, there’s no logic behind it.

This is probably my biggest big bear with him, I really don’t like this trait, I believe everyone should get a fair crack and that underperforming players shouldn’t just walk into the team when they don’t merit it, likewise I expect players who do perform to be given a fair chance.



Yeah I don’t really like how he uses (or doesn’t use) Martinelli either, the kid saved his job in December imo and that should be enough on its own to get him the willian favourable treatment.

Im just hoping he has more info than us and is trying to protect him from injuries given he does get a lock of knocks, but still does seem odd and agree it’s not his best skill to play those based on merit.
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby starmandb » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:33 pm

KG3 wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


Those first two were signed for the first team, with experience already in Europe’s top 5 leagues from their previous teams, so they’re irrelevant especially considering they’re both nearly 23 and 24 lol.

As for the other sure yeah he’s given them a few minutes here and there, but I’m on about regular game time giving them a chance in the prem etc.

Look at Emery for example Guendouzi was a 19 year old bench player in Ligue 2, came to Arsenal and played 48 games in all comps under Emery during his first season that’s what you call giving a youngster a proper chance and experience, they’re plenty of others Emery did the same for also

Gabriel is 23 and 4 months
Odegaard is 22 and 4 months
Brought in by Arteta who doesn’t give youth a chance
Players in there age category are eligible to play in under 23 football
So there still remains a platform for them being young players.
Emery was at Arsenal for 58 games
In that time Guendouzi played 3040 mins for Us
In Arteta’s first 58 games 18/19 year old saka played 3493 mins a proper chance?
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby starmandb » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:13 pm

Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


You’ve got to start distinguishing between kids and players who are more experienced and have played first team football regularly.

You can’t just look at their age, plus as people have said before 23-24 is no longer a kid, they’re approaching their mods 20s.

No
I still maintain as does the fact there is an under 23 league that 23 and under makes you a young player
The fact that some of these players have become first team regulars is testimony to the fact that Arsenal have and always have had a very good youth policy
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby KG3 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 am

starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


Those first two were signed for the first team, with experience already in Europe’s top 5 leagues from their previous teams, so they’re irrelevant especially considering they’re both nearly 23 and 24 lol.

As for the other sure yeah he’s given them a few minutes here and there, but I’m on about regular game time giving them a chance in the prem etc.

Look at Emery for example Guendouzi was a 19 year old bench player in Ligue 2, came to Arsenal and played 48 games in all comps under Emery during his first season that’s what you call giving a youngster a proper chance and experience, they’re plenty of others Emery did the same for also

Gabriel is 23 and 4 months
Odegaard is 22 and 4 months
Brought in by Arteta who doesn’t give youth a chance
Players in there age category are eligible to play in under 23 football
So there still remains a platform for them being young players.
Emery was at Arsenal for 58 games
In that time Guendouzi played 3040 mins for Us
In Arteta’s first 58 games 18/19 year old saka played 3493 mins a proper chance?


Lol it was Emery who put Saka on if Arteta was the one who had to give him a debut he’d be sat in the reserves with Balogun, Azeez and Lopez right now
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby KG3 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:24 am

Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


You’ve got to start distinguishing between kids and players who are more experienced and have played first team football regularly.

You can’t just look at their age, plus as people have said before 23-24 is no longer a kid, they’re approaching their mods 20s.


Exactly
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby swipe right » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:18 am

starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


Those first two were signed for the first team, with experience already in Europe’s top 5 leagues from their previous teams, so they’re irrelevant especially considering they’re both nearly 23 and 24 lol.

As for the other sure yeah he’s given them a few minutes here and there, but I’m on about regular game time giving them a chance in the prem etc.

Look at Emery for example Guendouzi was a 19 year old bench player in Ligue 2, came to Arsenal and played 48 games in all comps under Emery during his first season that’s what you call giving a youngster a proper chance and experience, they’re plenty of others Emery did the same for also

Gabriel is 23 and 4 months
Odegaard is 22 and 4 months
Brought in by Arteta who doesn’t give youth a chance
Players in there age category are eligible to play in under 23 football
So there still remains a platform for them being young players.
Emery was at Arsenal for 58 games
In that time Guendouzi played 3040 mins for Us
In Arteta’s first 58 games 18/19 year old saka played 3493 mins a proper chance?

23 year olds who we paid millions for are not youth products.
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Salibatelli » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:54 am

starmandb wrote:
Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


You’ve got to start distinguishing between kids and players who are more experienced and have played first team football regularly.

You can’t just look at their age, plus as people have said before 23-24 is no longer a kid, they’re approaching their mods 20s.

No
I still maintain as does the fact there is an under 23 league that 23 and under makes you a young player
The fact that some of these players have become first team regulars is testimony to the fact that Arsenal have and always have had a very good youth policy


Fair enough but I and a lot of people disagree, players approaching their mid 20s are no longer kids IMO and certainly players who have come from other clubs and played a lot of first team football aren’t youth products either.

As for the U23 league that’s irrelevant, England have U21s not U23s at International level and that’s more indicative of a young player.
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:03 am

Starmandb sees youth in a different way to most of us. He takes a literal line in and around age 23, so 24 year olds creep in. That's not a young player and I don't believe the U23s is supposed to be a representation of a young team, its the replacement for the old reserve team league.

As the history goes, the old reserve team league was replaced by the U21s which was the most senior youth league, it permitted 4 over age players. That has since been replaced with the U23s.

When we talk about young players Starmandb we are talking about young players getting their first taste of first team football, academy players, not players that have experienced pro life elsewhere. Players like Guendouzi and Martinelli who played low league footie in another country are considered young because they are still under 21 and and don't have footie experience at a high enough level.
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby starmandb » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:17 am

Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
KG3 wrote:One thing I loved about Emery he was always giving the youth a chance Guendouzi, ESR, Saka, Nketiah, Willock, Martinelli a lot of these players wouldn’t have any real experience without Emery, you only have to look at Artetas treatment of other youth players, he hasn’t actually bought any one through who wasn’t given minutes under Wenger/Emery.

No doubt if Emery was still in charge Balogun, Lopez and Azeez would have first team experience by now

Gabriel, odegaard, Balogun, cotterell and azeez all had there first taste of first team experience under Arteta


You’ve got to start distinguishing between kids and players who are more experienced and have played first team football regularly.

You can’t just look at their age, plus as people have said before 23-24 is no longer a kid, they’re approaching their mods 20s.

No
I still maintain as does the fact there is an under 23 league that 23 and under makes you a young player
The fact that some of these players have become first team regulars is testimony to the fact that Arsenal have and always have had a very good youth policy


Fair enough but I and a lot of people disagree, players approaching their mid 20s are no longer kids IMO and certainly players who have come from other clubs and played a lot of first team football aren’t youth products either.

As for the U23 league that’s irrelevant, England have U21s not U23s at International level and that’s more indicative of a young player.

That’s the under 21’s that any player born after the first of jan 1998 could play in?
So 23 years olds at the 2021 euros then?
So players that do well young and get picked a lot can no longer be considered young and it’s the managers fault?
Right oh!
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:46 am

Semantics day. Imagine we sold Saka to another club like City or Utd and they tried to take credit for developing and discovering him because he's under 23.
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Santi » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:34 am

I see Omphi’s everywhere
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Goonerred » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:55 pm

Can Willock play against us on Sunday?
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby Ach » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:57 pm

No
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby starmandb » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:38 pm

theHotHead wrote:Starmandb sees youth in a different way to most of us. He takes a literal line in and around age 23, so 24 year olds creep in. That's not a young player and I don't believe the U23s is supposed to be a representation of a young team, its the replacement for the old reserve team league.

As the history goes, the old reserve team league was replaced by the U21s which was the most senior youth league, it permitted 4 over age players. That has since been replaced with the U23s.

When we talk about young players Starmandb we are talking about young players getting their first taste of first team football, academy players, not players that have experienced pro life elsewhere. Players like Guendouzi and Martinelli who played low league footie in another country are considered young because they are still under 21 and and don't have footie experience at a high enough level.

If you can find anywhere where I use 24 as still a young player I would be interested because you are right
I have a definite cut off point of 23 being a young player
Simplistic I know
But a simple soul am I
How we bring our young players through is to our credit
The fact people don’t see certain players as young shows how well we have done in developing young players
All this said I couldn’t give a f**k how old they are
Are they good enough for the job is the only worthwhile criteria
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Re: Joe Willock (on loan - Newcastle United)

Postby starmandb » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:41 pm

Power n Glory wrote:Semantics day. Imagine we sold Saka to another club like City or Utd and they tried to take credit for developing and discovering him because he's under 23.

He would still be called young saka
Plenty of young players have done well at Arsenal under managers that didn’t give them their debut
O’Leary, rocastle, Adams etc
It’s only an issue when people keep moaning about it.
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