The Kroenke Problem

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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:29 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


Still not sure why you insist on defending a financial model over a football club but to each their own.


Well, I much prefer football clubs spending what they can generate.
Sugar daddies exploding the transfer market has ruined football, driven up transfer prices for everyone, and widened the gap between the elite clubs and others. I am happy that we're not financially cheating. It's the one area of common ground I have with Wenger. He may have been a bad football manager, but at least he understood what was good for the game overall.


It's not cheating if its within the rules. Not sure why you think otherwise.


The rules are being bent to accomodate cheats.
Corruption doesn't become cool just because a few corrupt people get together to create the rules.
Buying trophies with money not generated in football is financially cheating.
I'd prefer we did not do that, especially as we already generate enough money to spend at the levels we currently do (which is adequate).


These mega rich owners are laundering money. That's why they were dumping so much money into teams. Nothing to do with the love of the game. Human Rights abusers, corrupt former prime ministers...I have no idea how the FA have allowed some these characters to own a football club.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:33 am

Power n Glory wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


Still not sure why you insist on defending a financial model over a football club but to each their own.


Well, I much prefer football clubs spending what they can generate.
Sugar daddies exploding the transfer market has ruined football, driven up transfer prices for everyone, and widened the gap between the elite clubs and others. I am happy that we're not financially cheating. It's the one area of common ground I have with Wenger. He may have been a bad football manager, but at least he understood what was good for the game overall.


It's not cheating if its within the rules. Not sure why you think otherwise.


The rules are being bent to accomodate cheats.
Corruption doesn't become cool just because a few corrupt people get together to create the rules.
Buying trophies with money not generated in football is financially cheating.
I'd prefer we did not do that, especially as we already generate enough money to spend at the levels we currently do (which is adequate).


These mega rich owners are laundering money. That's why they were dumping so much money into teams. Nothing to do with the love of the game. Human Rights abusers, corrupt former prime ministers...I have no idea how the FA have allowed some these characters to own a football club.


I suspect because they were invited onto the money train.
Excessive money has really hurt the game in many ways.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:08 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


Still not sure why you insist on defending a financial model over a football club but to each their own.


Well, I much prefer football clubs spending what they can generate.
Sugar daddies exploding the transfer market has ruined football, driven up transfer prices for everyone, and widened the gap between the elite clubs and others. I am happy that we're not financially cheating. It's the one area of common ground I have with Wenger. He may have been a bad football manager, but at least he understood what was good for the game overall.


It's not cheating if its within the rules. Not sure why you think otherwise.


The rules are being bent to accomodate cheats.
Corruption doesn't become cool just because a few corrupt people get together to create the rules.
Buying trophies with money not generated in football is financially cheating.
I'd prefer we did not do that, especially as we already generate enough money to spend at the levels we currently do (which is adequate).


These mega rich owners are laundering money. That's why they were dumping so much money into teams. Nothing to do with the love of the game. Human Rights abusers, corrupt former prime ministers...I have no idea how the FA have allowed some these characters to own a football club.


I suspect because they were invited onto the money train.
Excessive money has really hurt the game in many ways.


That too. They should also be investigated for corruption. I was reading how some owner was denied the right to trade in the UK because of their dodgy dealings but somehow passed the FA test for being fit a proper for ownership.

We'll be interesting to see what happens over the years but it's gotten out of control. We already had the situation with Man City where the former owner was sentenced to jail for corruption charges in Thailand and assets frozen. Roman Abramovich has been expelled from UK, won't get a VISA and was denied a residency in Switzerland because they believe he's a criminal.....we've heard stories on Usmanov....it's not a good space for football.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:21 am

LMAO wrote:So...how exactly did I create a fictitious scenario? I simply used the one you provided :dontknow: Y'know, the one where you intentionally devalued Arsenal via a race car proxy. And then because you wanted to become an expert finance lecturer yet got the lesson wrong, I gave justification as to why the idea of investing in new assets without 100% share ownership isn't that dumb when you delve into it.

And then you introduced new information like I don't already know investment in players pre-Usmanov selling would've likely increased Arsenal's valuation, thus making Kroenke's buyout of the Russian oligarch more expensive. If Kroenke had let Usmanov actually invest, then Arsenal is likely worth a hell of a lot more than the $2.3B it's currently valued at. Arsenal may have been worth $3.0B if Usmanov was allowed to bankroll us—even without Kroenke providing outside funds himself. 67% of $3.0B may not be worth more than 100% of $2.3B, but when you include Kroenke not needing to cough up $712 million to buy Usmanov out, the potential profit from the increase in valuation would more than offset the difference for Kroenke.


I don't even know where to begin ... I created a fictitious analogy and called it exactly that ... the 2 billion dollar car? it's not real ... but the economics are very basic, or at least they should have been ... but clearly they went straight over your head ...

Now you're creating your own fantasy world to justify your previous fantasy ... and frankly it's beyond jackanory ....

If Kroenke had let Usmanov actually invest - so in your scenario Usmanov gives Kronke free money?
Arsenal may have been worth $3.0B if Usmanov was allowed to bankroll us - that's based on what a dream you had?
67% of $3.0B may not be worth more than 100% of $2.3B - You're right it isn't

So let's get your imaginary scenario in chronological order of how you think it would have gone ....

Usamanov invests 200m and for that he wants nothing back, he's just happy to be the nice guy Mr Arsenal, that 200m magically increases the value of the club by 700m from 2.3 billion and so we arrive at your lovely 3 billion number (the other 500m coming from the magic money tree no doubt) .... Usmanov loves Kroenke so much he's happy for Kroenke to have complete control of his 200m investment and for Kroenke to take all the profit in his increased share value even though he made no investment at all ... what a lovely fella he must be ....

Meanwhile in the real world none of that happened ... nor would it ever happen .... :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

In the days of billion pound football businesses nobody puts 100's of millions into any club without getting something back ... not even fanatical fan football club owners ... you are living in a world of pure delusion if you think that was ever going to happen ... the fact it never did, and that Usmanov left, and that Kronke now owns 100% of our club kinda bears that out don't you think.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:51 am

jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


When was this then? source, date etc

Because he hasn't, and don't come out with some stupid sh*t where its AFC's own money generated through the clubs own income making you look like an idiot.

When has Kroenke put in hundreds of millions of additional external money not generated by the club's own income?
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:33 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


When was this then? source, date etc

Because he hasn't, and don't come out with some stupid sh*t where its AFC's own money generated through the clubs own income making you look like an idiot.

When has Kroenke put in hundreds of millions of additional external money not generated by the club's own income?

I think you will find that is NOT what Jayram wrote !!! He wrote:
Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team


He didn't say:
Kroenke put in hundreds of millions of additional external money


You do like to put words in people's mouths don't you DG !!
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:39 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:Sell players on?

Are you having a bubble? we just let some of our best assets walk away on a free, we have no assets to sell that won't hurt our team in the process.

£45m is not plenty when we just let Ramsey walk for free and Welbeck, we won't get enough money for Mustafi either.

............ and you still haven't answered the question of why other Billionaire owners managed to inject money into their teams when they purchased them so they could buy and sell higher level players but Kroenke won't.


Kroenke has injected hundreds of millions as investment into the team.
Is your beef about which bank account he did it from?


When was this then? source, date etc

Because he hasn't, and don't come out with some stupid sh*t where its AFC's own money generated through the clubs own income making you look like an idiot.

When has Kroenke put in hundreds of millions of additional external money not generated by the club's own income?


Kroneke was the majority and then the sole shareholder of the club.
Any investment the club makes in players is Kroenke's investment.

Oddly, you seem to be fascinated with which bank account his money comes from.

The club has £230m in the bank - if we actually want or need to invest more we can (a sum that is growing year on year). We don't need Kroenke to move funds from another account to the clubs account.

Study our finances. The entire reason that Kroenke has not put external money into the club as a cash injection is because we have never needed it - unlike other clubs. Add up the cash from ALL other clubs in the PL (except Utd) and you'll find it is about equal to ours.

There is your reason for the disparity in owner cash injections. It has nothing at all to do with willingness to invest in players, which Kroenke has done to a level that is 12th across the whole of Europe over the past 10 years and only lower than 3 clubs in the PL.

Your angle of attack on Kroenke has been plain wrong from the start. Now, if you want to criticise him for not spending more of the cash we already have, it's a better argument - and one I have also made to an extent. I moved away from wanting him to do that after seeing how money was being wasted on poor players and understanding that it's the coaching, the menatlity of the players and lack of backbone in the team that is our actual issue. So I have accepted that our challenge is now a longer term one.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:45 am

This thread dies if we end up signing some decent players this summer. That's the reality. Where the money comes from becomes irrelevant and the focus goes back on the pitch.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:50 am

Power n Glory wrote:This thread dies if we end up signing some decent players this summer. That's the reality. Where the money comes from becomes irrelevant and the focus goes back on the pitch.


The focus should always be on the pitch - that is what I don't get about the railing against Kroenke.
I'd understand if he was investing nothing in the team, or every little, but that is just not the case.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby aniym » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:53 am

We're spending £30m/yr on two nothing players while letting Ramsey and Alexis leave for free when they could have brought in £100m between them.

In a twisted way, I can almost understand why the mustachioed prick isn't sanctioning more spending.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:04 pm

aniym wrote:We're spending £30m/yr on two nothing players while letting Ramsey and Alexis leave for free when they could have brought in £100m between them.

In a twisted way, I can almost understand why the mustachioed prick isn't sanctioning more spending.


Indeed:

Here's the last 3 years of incoming players (not including this window).

Players
Lucas Torreira, £25.79m
Bernd Leno,£22.50m
Sokratis, £14.40m
Mattéo Guendouzi, £7.20m
Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, £57.38m
Alexandre Lacazette, £47.70m
Henrikh Mkhitaryan, £30.60m
Konstantinos Mavropanos, £1.89m
Granit Xhaka, £40.50m
Shkodran Mustafi, £36.90m
Lucas Pérez, £18.00m
Takuma Asano, £3.60m
Rob Holding, £2.70m

Total £309.16m
Average over £100m a year gross.
The players who left have been better and we sold them for a total of about £160m, so player investment is about £47m a year avg over the last 3 years.

I'd be really pissed off if I was Kroenke looking at where the money has been going.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby aniym » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:26 pm

The players who left were not better though, barring maybe Alexis (not on current form obv). They were symptomatic of poor spending and development in Wenger's final years.

Giroud, Ox, Walcott, Gabriel and Gibbs brought in nearly 100m between them, and they haven't been missed. That doesn't include Debuchy, Welbeck and Wilshere, all of whom should have been sold instead of sitting out their contracts.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:59 pm

aniym wrote:The players who left were not better though, barring maybe Alexis (not on current form obv). They were symptomatic of poor spending and development in Wenger's final years.

Giroud, Ox, Walcott, Gabriel and Gibbs brought in nearly 100m between them, and they haven't been missed. That doesn't include Debuchy, Welbeck and Wilshere, all of whom should have been sold instead of sitting out their contracts.


Overall, it's my view that they were better... Ox, Walcott, Gabriel and Gibbs would be welcome in the team now IMO. But, it's close. I also meant the free transers too, like Ramsey and even Wilshere (though he stuffed his own career up).

It's disappointing that we lost so many players over the last 3 years for just £160m total inflow of transfer funds. I think given the strength of our squad, we might be in the same place for the next couple of seasons. Not much coming in.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby DiamondGooner » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:43 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:This thread dies if we end up signing some decent players this summer. That's the reality. Where the money comes from becomes irrelevant and the focus goes back on the pitch.


The focus should always be on the pitch - that is what I don't get about the railing against Kroenke.
I'd understand if he was investing nothing in the team, or every little, but that is just not the case.


Because better players = better performances.

We need more cash to be in that conversation.

You can't give Emery a Ford Focus and expect him to beat a Ferrari.

If Kroenke bought us better players we could buy and sell better from here on, but he won't put any additional money in so we can't.

End of story, your argument is trash.

Squeeze Champagne out of Lemons is your answer, enjoy Europa for the rest of your life.
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Re: The Kroenke Problem

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:09 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:This thread dies if we end up signing some decent players this summer. That's the reality. Where the money comes from becomes irrelevant and the focus goes back on the pitch.


The focus should always be on the pitch - that is what I don't get about the railing against Kroenke.
I'd understand if he was investing nothing in the team, or every little, but that is just not the case.

Exactly. If the manager was getting the most/best out of the players that would be one thing, but the players are under performing, they can do better. Lets fix what happens on the pitch first, lets get the basics right.
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