The Kroenke Problem

[EliteKiller]

So back to mr. elite, so Newcastle haven't sold yet, but my point still stands, they are trying to sell, and by the fans protesting and complaining for years, it has caused Ashley to try to sell it, so even though he hasn't yet, it's working. And still not really sure of your point about how many fans. It only takes thousands to make a very loud and annoying noise, you don't need every single person from your fan base to show up on Stan's doorstep to prove a point. Small groups can make loud waves buddy!

So let's say we accept your opinion that the Newcastle fans protests are working ... and let's copy that model

So what can we look forward to? well the Ashley out protests began in 2012 so seven years and he's still there ...

Newcastle have finished 5th/16th/10th/15th/18th(r)/1st(p)/10th/13th ... so just avoided relegation or got relegated, the only good season they've had was in the Championship .... you want that?

Newcastle managers - Shearer / Houghton / Pardew / Carver / McClaren / Benitez ... are you sure?

So you're suggesting we go through several years of protest whilst changing managers like shirts, almost certainly dropping down the table and becoming a perennial struggle in the EPL, with some vague hope that Kroenke might leave ... that's the plan?

What we need to do is forget about an owner we can't do anything about, he allows the club to reinvest what we make that's all we can expect from any owner under FFP, we've had 800m to spend in a decade that's more than 95% of professional clubs in Europe. We need to get behind The Don and support the players we have this season ... if he doesn't deliver that's on him and them, not on Kroenke ... we spend the same on players wages as Liverpool, 80m more than Spuds, there is no excuse ....

Forget lame protesting and get behind the team we have ... deep down you must know you can't change our owner, all you can do is sow discord and misery it's the AFTV mentality ... what's the point of more of that?

[StLGooner]

Create a negative enough environment for kronke specifically and his asset wont look as attractive and he will sell eventually because the only thing he cares about is the value of his asset.

We get a new owner that actually cares about winning who adds in the maximum allowed every window to help us improve. We win things.

It's not difficult

Great theory ... but over the last five years of "Wenger Out" the asset value has doubled ... as you say it's truly not that difficult to grasp, fans protesting is great, fans creating a poisonous atmosphere that only hurts the players ... our owner has half a dozen franchises most of whose fans hate him and give him constant abuse ... has he sold any of them?

The trouble with posting a seemingly rational theory is when five minutes of research soon reveal that theory to be based on nothing but unfounded opinion, not evidence or facts ....

Do you honestly think Kroenke is going away? or that a few protesters and empty seats will change his mind? do you?

That's like telling a young kid that wants to be a professional footballer that the odds are he won't ever reach those heights, so might as well not even try.

Funny analogy because it does seem like some of these ideas come from an immature and delusional place.

Forcing any ownership out or to sell is rare. But it has happened before, and it has happened by protesting and creating pressure to sell, it's not so delusional or immature as you think.

The immature and delusional part comes from the fact that some aren't considering what this would potentially do to the club. It should be a last resort. If people are willing to stand by the new manager and want to see how this new Arsenal set up takes place, the same should be extended to the owner that has put this model in place. Being vocal and visual protests are fine and keeps the pressure and demand for more on but it can't be to the point where we starts to harm our own resources.

So your reasoning is that it's delusional and immature, because you ASSUME people aren't thinking about what it could do to the club? So first thing, you're just assuming that people aren't thinking about that, then you're assuming that somehow getting a new owner would be detrimental to the club, or at least the protest and pressure leading up to it? So you really have no legs to stand on in any of this, and you're just worried about what might happen, and basing those worries off of assumptions as well. Well I'm worried about what IS happening right now.

Bottom line is, our club is on the downward spiral right now. No it's not just Stans fault, it's the entire Club as a whole that is failing at this point. Whether that be from past board members, past management, or whatever it is. Stan isn't the type to take priority on that and actually make things better. He'll sit back, collect his money and when things get really bad he may make a move or two. He isn't the worst owner in history, but he is a very bad one, unless you're just a club that loves to dabble into mediocrity forever, in that case he's the perfect owner. Well I'd like to think of Arsenal as being better than that, but that is where we're heading right now, and if at all possible (and it really is possible), I'd like to get a better owner. No, not one that just can come in and throw cash around, one that really cares, is passionate about Arsenal or at least football in general. I don't think that is asking much.

Even in the conversations had on here, little thought has gone into how we generate money, what FFP means and how clubs tend to generate a money from player sales. If someone can form a sensible argument addressing the key points that will effect us, I'll at least know some thought has gone into this and it's not just immature ranting about our owner.

The same way we generate money now, why would it change? Do you just think our fanbase goes away if we get a new owner? Do you think he gets to take the stadium back home with him and we have to find a pitch to play on? I don't really get your point to be honest? I just want a club that is better run from top to bottom, nothing would change (in that sense) but the name on our Wikipedia page under "owner".

You may not have been following the talk earlier but Zedie suggested Kroenke would leave if the value of the club started to drop since all he cares about is money. We have had this debate before. If fans withdraw their money and attention, sponsors won't be so eager to invest, gate revenue will be down and since the bottom line will be effected, so will Stan and he'll walk.

So that's how our ability to generate money changes if we're talking about harming his revenue stream.

Yea I'm not talking about any of that. Smooth transitions to new owners has happened many times. There is no need to withdraw money or stop supporting the team, simple protest, and heavy pressure from the fan base can cause owners to sell, yea maybe it's not likely but it's worth a shot.

[StLGooner]

So back to mr. elite, so Newcastle haven't sold yet, but my point still stands, they are trying to sell, and by the fans protesting and complaining for years, it has caused Ashley to try to sell it, so even though he hasn't yet, it's working. And still not really sure of your point about how many fans. It only takes thousands to make a very loud and annoying noise, you don't need every single person from your fan base to show up on Stan's doorstep to prove a point. Small groups can make loud waves buddy!

So let's say we accept your opinion that the Newcastle fans protests are working ... and let's copy that model

So what can we look forward to? well the Ashley out protests began in 2012 so seven years and he's still there ...

Newcastle have finished 5th/16th/10th/15th/18th(r)/1st(p)/10th/13th ... so just avoided relegation or got relegated, the only good season they've had was in the Championship .... you want that?

Newcastle managers - Shearer / Houghton / Pardew / Carver / McClaren / Benitez ... are you sure?

So you're suggesting we go through several years of protest whilst changing managers like shirts, almost certainly dropping down the table and becoming a perennial struggle in the EPL, with some vague hope that Kroenke might leave ... that's the plan?

What we need to do is forget about an owner we can't do anything about, he allows the club to reinvest what we make that's all we can expect from any owner under FFP, we've had 800m to spend in a decade that's more than 95% of professional clubs in Europe. We need to get behind The Don and support the players we have this season ... if he doesn't deliver that's on him and them, not on Kroenke ... we spend the same on players wages as Liverpool, 80m more than Spuds, there is no excuse ....

Forget lame protesting and get behind the team we have ... deep down you must know you can't change our owner, all you can do is sow discord and misery it's the AFTV mentality ... what's the point of more of that?

I'm not necessarily suggesting anything, all I'm saying is that our owner is shit. It's pretty simple. But a few on here are acting like he is ok and isn't part of the problem, when I think that he is. I can still get behind the team and protest and still want a new owner, you don't have to do just one thing or the other. You guys are acting like because I want a new owner that I'm somehow in misery or pain, and am always so negative. I think that is your way of deflecting my opinion as some sort of bad one, but all you guys have been doing once I take down one of your silly arguments is grasping for straws for some other reason why my opinion isn't a good one. Just admit it, you know our owner is crap too. First you say protesting doesn't work, then I prove to you that is does and has, then it's "oh well just quit being so negative and get behind the team", then it's "its not the owners fault, it's Wengers". How many straws are you going to reach for? Seriously!!


Remember I jumped into this a while back because some thought that our owner is fine and it's everyone else's fault, mostly Wenger. Well imo our owner is part of the huge problem we have. There isn't a sure way to dethrone him so to speak, but that's not my point here, my point is that he is also a part of our issues. Whether we can get him to sell or no is missing the whole point.

[Phil71]

Forcing any ownership out or to sell is rare. But it has happened before, and it has happened by protesting and creating pressure to sell, it's not so delusional or immature as you think.

It is when you are only talking about 10,000 fans or 20,000 or even 30,000 out of Arsenal's several million ... Newcastle have been protesting for years how's that working out ... in fact name any EPL owners who jacked it whilst making a ton of money because of the fans ... I've racked my brains and I can't come up with a single one ...

Didn't Newcastle just sell or did that not go through?

I don't really know what your point is here?

Rafa announced today that he's leaving Toon at the end of the month; they couldbt dl a deal regarding contract renewal. He's always fought for more transfer funds, so I imagine the Dubai buyer must have backed out. Club brass and the fans wanted him to stay.

Could be more to do with Ashley wanting as clean a slate as possible in order to sell the club.

Who knows if a potential owner wants an expensive manager on a long contract as part of the package? They may want their own man.

My guess is Rafa was offered a short deal, and turned it down.

[Phil71]

On another note, Kroenke has been ordered to pay $24m to a group of St Louis Rams supporters, as compensation for various things such as season ticket licences to club merchandise bought just before his announcement that the club would relocate.

Peanuts in the grand scheme of the LA Rams venture, which cost around $3.5bn. Kroenke and his wife put in $1.2bn of their own cash.

[StLGooner]

On another note, Kroenke has been ordered to pay $24m to a group of St Louis Rams supporters, as compensation for various things such as season ticket licences to club merchandise bought just before his announcement that the club would relocate.

And rightly so. He lied to the whole city and fan base, and also caused the city to pay $15 million of it's own tax dollars to keep the team here and then left anyway. And we have people on this forum defending this prick. I know you guys don't care about my city like I do of course, but he's just a dirty lying c*** of human.

[Zanatos3]

Before the season has even begun and the fan base is already hell bent on creating a poisonous environment for our club. Will we never learn?

Can anyone explain who creating once again a negative environment at the Emirates is going to impact an owner who never attends? All that will happen is the manager and players will suffer, just as they have previously ... anyone want to explain why some people do this?

Create a negative enough environment for kronke specifically and his asset wont look as attractive and he will sell eventually because the only thing he cares about is the value of his asset.

We get a new owner that actually cares about winning who adds in the maximum allowed every window to help us improve. We win things.

It's not difficult

AGREED 100% Totally withing Financial Regulations, just Enhancing the Self Sustaining model,
due to the stagnating setbacks of recent seasons.

[Zanatos3]

Forcing any ownership out or to sell is rare. But it has happened before, and it has happened by protesting and creating pressure to sell, it's not so delusional or immature as you think.

It is when you are only talking about 10,000 fans or 20,000 or even 30,000 out of Arsenal's several million ... Newcastle have been protesting for years how's that working out ... in fact name any EPL owners who jacked it whilst making a ton of money because of the fans ... I've racked my brains and I can't come up with a single one ...

Didn't Newcastle just sell or did that not go through?

I don't really know what your point is here?

Rafa announced today that he's leaving Toon at the end of the month; they couldbt dl a deal regarding contract renewal. He's always fought for more transfer funds, so I imagine the Dubai buyer must have backed out. Club brass and the fans wanted him to stay.

Cheers!


So back to mr. elite, so Newcastle haven't sold yet, but my point still stands, they are trying to sell, and by the fans protesting and complaining for years, it has caused Ashley to try to sell it, so even though he hasn't yet, it's working. And still not really sure of your point about how many fans. It only takes thousands to make a very loud and annoying noise, you don't need every single person from your fan base to show up on Stan's doorstep to prove a point. Small groups can make loud waves buddy!

I wonder,

If we can think more PRO-ACTIVELY...
Instead of Attacking Kronke Directly
How about doing it another way

How about us fans do the searching, for an Owner for Our club,
Someone Financially on Par with The Kronke's or in a Legal Organisation or Amalgamation of Business that
Have a bright future & Can afford to Fund ARSENAL FC.
Instead of Arsenal Ltd.

I don;t know any Sheik's personally but what if there are other Multi-Billionaires that have never though of BUYING ARSENAL
Maybe they got Rich not by Inheriting Oil Wealth but by being an Entroupreneur, etc...

What if instead of HATE MAIL TO KRONKE , we send invites to other Dons that may want to invest or Take Arsenal FC off of Kronke's hands

We as fans, AST TRUST etc...get in contact with people that Can buy the club, ppl that might care more & see Arsenal as both a business & a Football Club worth banking on.

We could find them, plant the Idea in their minds, send emails to them

Maybe some are Arsenal fans but never though of the Posibility of Buying the club,

but if we fans , 30,000 or more find & enter conversations with enough Billionare around the world,

Maybe they can conjoin & Offer Kronke not only ENOUGH BILLONS to buy the club
but
Also a Business plan & model that will convince him to sell, that will convince him the the club will be taken care off well & have a good Structure & future.
MLK....if i had a dream yes... But Ideas, IDEAS are Powerful, they can move Mountains.

Just wanted to put the IDEA out there.

[StLGooner]

Hey I'm all for whatever works to get that prick away from our club.

[Highbury Hillbilly]

Usmanov has more money than Stan, but he didn't have enough shares to make a difference at the board. He tried to increase his shareholding several times and was always rebuffed.

You cant buy a club if the majority shareholder says it's not for sale.

[Zedie]

Usmanov has more money than Stan, but he didn't have enough shares to make a difference at the board. He tried to increase his shareholding several times and was always rebuffed.

You cant buy a club if the majority shareholder says it's not for sale.

Again, you the force the majority share holder into viewing his asset as too difficult to or not valuable enough to continue with, hence they then put it up for sale.

An usmanov comes in and buys.

Kronke has been sat in LA and St Louis not bothered about a thing because the fans have been tearing chunks out of wenger, gazidis, players and are now turning on emery rather than actually question him.

Even if we end this summer signing:

Tierney
Saliba
WF
CM

He still could have actually put in 100m or whatever on top to either upgrade those purchases or have gone further to secure another CB / WF / CM or AM etc.

[Highbury Hillbilly]

^^ Newcastle got relegated and it wasnt enough for Mike Ashley to relinquish control.

We'd have to fall to Blackpool or Leeds Utd levels of mismanagement for ownership to change. And even then, there's no guarantee the new owner will be a sugar daddy. See LCFC, Fulham and Hull...all billionaire owners.

I'm worried we'll become a poor man's Monaco...a selling club that only occasionally finds top tier youth talent and sells them off repeatedly.

[EliteKiller]

AGREED 100% Totally withing Financial Regulations, just Enhancing the Self Sustaining model,
due to the stagnating setbacks of recent seasons.

Just checking .... you are fully aware that we've spent right up to the maximum under FFP for the last three years, that in fact our wages budget is so maxed-out we couldn't afford to pay and keep Ramsey? you do know all that don't you?

We get a new owner that actually cares about winning who adds in the maximum allowed every window to help us improve

So that's exactly the same amount we spend now .... the maximum an owner can add to the FFP revenue stream is nil ... owners can only pay for infrastructure with any money raised by that infrastructure then being available as new income - Liverpool spent 257m on infrastructure funded by FSG loans, Spurs spent 800m underwritten by ENIC, City spent an alleged billion but of course we know they cheated and used it for transfers, and it looks like they got caught .... we already had the Emirates all we can do is tart it up and raise ticket prices ...

The reality is billionaire owner or not when your income goes down the maximum you can increase your spend by per annum is 7m a year .... only money raised under the allowable UEFA criteria can be counted as extra revenue for any additional spending.

Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, sales of players and prize money. Any money spent on infrastructure, training facilities or youth development will not be included.

Bottom line Kroenke can't put in 100m for players even if he wanted to ... we wouldn't be allowed to spend one penny of his money directly on players or wages, that's the whole point of FFP ... maybe it will take City getting banned from Europe 2020/21 before people will finally get the picture ...

FFP was accepted by the Top Clubs because in essence it allows the elite rich clubs to spend vastly more than the small clubs thus protecting and indeed ensuring their elite status ... a side effect that the big clubs possibly overlooked was when things go a bit wrong on the pitch FFP won't allow them to just spend unlimited cash ... they actually have to manage a proper business, albeit one with a huge guaranteed advantage over 90% of their rivals.

In the end that fact we have a massive income that permits us to spend 220m a year on salaries, compared to the teams 7th and below who's income only allows them to spend around 140m, means that with even competent management our top six position is safe ... the fact we haven't had even barely competent manager for a decade is why we're now worst of the top six ... blame the owner all you like but Kroenke gave Gazidis and Wonger a Mercedes and the maximum allowed to run it, if they got beaten by Fords and Vauxhalls with half their budget, is that really all Kroenke's fault?

[theHotHead]

The only thing that will make Kroenke leave is a thoroughly negative environment. That will take a while to create and will have a negative impact on the team. Look how long it took to get Wenger out!!

Then the next hurdle is getting Arsenal supporters on board to create that negative environment. Why would they? We have a new manager, the ghost of Wenger is disappearing, we are slowly improving, why would fans want to stop progress by creating a negative environment at this point?!

There is very little justification to it, Kroenke hasn't hampered us. He needs to f**k up first before the Kroenke Out movement gathers any momentum.

[weaponx57]

The only thing that will make Kroenke leave is a thoroughly negative environment. That will take a while to create and will have a negative impact on the team. Look how long it took to get Wenger out!!

Then the next hurdle is getting Arsenal supporters on board to create that negative environment. Why would they? We have a new manager, the ghost of Wenger is disappearing, we are slowly improving, why would fans want to stop progress by creating a negative environment at this point?!

There is very little justification to it, Kroenke hasn't hampered us. He needs to f**k up first before the Kroenke Out movement gathers any momentum.

Guys we don't need to create a negative environment for the Players or Managers at all just for Kroenke.

Remember unlike Newcastle our team gets more worldwide coverage on both traditional and social media.

If all the fans around the world watch an Arsenal game on TV and hear the whole stadiums sing f**k Off Stan Kroenke say a few times during a game (Like f**k off Mou style) it will get such huge media coverage it would be like whoa....pundits and critics and the whole football world would hear it. It would have to be done at every home game.

Then would come the interviews and analysis and all that stuff....we don't need an empty stadium our players need the backing but we can boycott sales of merchandise...which would give Adidas a huge seizure lol.