The Kroenke Problem

[Zedie]

You dont need to counter the truth with figures everytime I post mate, especially when it just further highlights how much admiration you have for a business model over your own football club trying to genuinely compete and win.

Kronke chose to spend 550 on us. If he didnt want to spend money on winning anything, he should have stuck to f***ing over american sports teams. Here in the prem, football clubs try to win things and that requires bullishness in the market and a willing to invest, something neither you or kronke seem to be interested in.

Who gives a shit how much he spent to stagnate our club other than you?

Him spending more than the fans have spent in the last 5 years when the vast majority of those fans have been funding the club for a lifetime. It's the fans that made it so attractive in the first f***ing place.

f***ing 5 years. Tell that to a 5 year old. You're speaking to his dad whose been following arsenal and financially supporting this club for decades along with millions of others and their parents and their parents before them all the way back to 1900s.

Finally, TV revenue accounts for twice as much as match day revenue? I guess he'll just shrug off a third of that total income bracket drying up like it's nothing then lol. I guess he could always put his hand in his pocket to cover that.

Just like most of your other posts defending kronke, it's a lot of figures skirting around the undeniable truth.

Unicorns and money trees ffs

You're the forums greatest smoke and mirror merchant.

Sorry I used real facts and figures ... I know how much this annoys you ... just can't seem to get my head around using made up ones just to prove a ridiculous point ... but hey you stick with what works for you .....

I guess he'll just shrug off a third of that total income bracket drying up

A classic Zeddie unicorn ... Arsenal ticket income drying up = pure Zeddie fiction ...

Arsenal match-day income contributes 25% of our income (about 5% more than most of our rivals) why? because Arsenal can sell the highest price tickets due to sustained demand that has seen match-day revenue circa 100m even with the loss of CL football = actual real world fact

Yeah, I thought youd ignore basic facts. Because you know you're wrong yet again.

Or are you really denying that living arsenal fans including yourself and as a collective, have put in
More money than kronke over their lifetimes?

Where do you think the gate receipts and merchandise purchases come from?

Is kronke buying all the tickets and shirts?

Re match day income - if tickets remain unsold and empty seats, banners, protests, airplanes, media outlets are talking about this all you dont think it's going to affect that 25% share of income stream?

You dont think the waiting list eventually disappearing will affect kronke at all?

You know it will, just as it affected the decision to get rid of wenger, but you play stupid to try and drag your point over the line.

Just to be clear to everyone, I'm not saying that 25% will disappear overnight, but if theres even a small reduction through fan boycotting etc. Kronke 110% feels that.

As if a money man like kronke wouldn't.

You know this elite, just stop it and be honest with yourself.

[Zedie]

The open letter didn't mention anything about ticket prices being too high. It was a brief statement about the ticketing system needing to be improved so there aren't as many empty seats.

Josh Kroenke said in a video on the arsenal website, that the fans should not get involved with the clubs finances and instead, should support on the pitch. I agree about them not mentioning ticket prices in the open letter, but they did say that our transfers lacked strategy, the board lacked strong members and how the club felt like an investment vehicle for Kroenke. I can disagree with any of that. All are important points.

On transfer strategy....is it case of us not having one or is it just fans disagreeing with our approach? Some would be happy for to us spend £80m on Zaha. Others wouldn't. Trying to sign young prospects that could become future stars is still a strategy even if we'd prefer more senior players that are ready to play now. But the window still isn't closed. I don't know if we can really talk about things working or not working. The strategy could have been to take it to deadline day where activity can speed up and prices drop.

I still maintain that this letter wouldn't have gone out if we had just spent silly money on a player or even £80m on Zaha. Alarm bells on ownership tend to ring most during slow transfer windows. The same could be said about us lacking direction, strategy and leadership even when we spend silly money. But those sort of conversations tend to happen after we've blown a massive hole in our budget and spent unwisely.

Only you are really pushing the sign zaha for 80m upfront narrative, practically everyone is ready to be pragmatic.

If they stick to 80m (would be a surprise tbh seeing as they asked that for bissaka and sold for 55m weeks later) its obvs too much right now and we should aggressively chase alternatives.

Having said that, we are obviously scrimping on an extra 5-10m upfront for tierney for example, so the funds would help.

Sealing:

Tierney
Everton or zaha
Ceballos (option to buy)
Starting CB for this season (ie not saliba)

Would be a step in the right direction. Getting everton and zaha would be a bigger step.

We've lived through slow windows for years, this isnt a new thing. A new thing would be actually completing all of these deals before deadline and not leaving us with deadwood or even worse 1 first team signing and a kid that wont play for us this season.

This is an open forum Zedie. I can see what you post on the Zaha thread.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31526&start=345

We should at least be trying instead of guarding our millions like a vagrant defending his last sip of super tenants.

10m plus 60m add ons isnt trying.

That was yesterday evening!

Anything over £40m is too much! We're in this mess because we have spent unwisely so I stand by what I have said above.

Also, I just noticed Gooner LK6's post breaking down how much we have spent over the last seasons and being pissed when looking at our reported budget for this season.

Yeah that was poorly worded.

60m of which 10m is initial payment for example with the rest being 50m of add ons like 40m for a ballon dor win within 2 days of signing etc.

You get the picture.

Have a look at the Tierney debacle and how ridiculously we are splitting the payments. It's a good reason why we are a few weeks away from deadline with no senior signings.

[theHotHead]

Amendment made to the post below

We know money is being spent, but its the amount that we are pissed off over.

Last 2 seasons net spend for some select clubs, not including this summers signings. (last 3 seasons in red)

Chelsea £224m (£198m)
Man City £206m (£382m)
Man Utd £165m (£306m)
Everton £116m (154m)
Liverpool £100m (£102m)
Wolves £63m (£125m)
West Ham £61m (£103m)
Arsenal £56m (£81m)
Leicester £46m (£75m)
Spurs £24m (£39m)

Its no surprise that a lot of figures in the media are saying that leicester, west ham, wolves and everton have a chance at overtaking us in the table at some point.

I tried to go back to 3 years fully expecting us to be closer to our direct rivals (Spurs/Liverpool) when it comes to financials, but I was shocked and then dismayed to see Wolves had STILL spent more than us, net, in that period - which includes a season of them being in the Championship FFS !!!

Whilst I will maintain my point that we have been spending money, it is obvious that we could be spending more. No my stance has not changed, I still disagree that Kroenke is the reason we are where we are, that blame lies squarely at the feet of Gazidis and Wenger who spunked a load of money away and on Wenger's part, couldn't manage a piss up in Ireland. But the club should be spending more. Was it the case that we didn't spend because of Wenger's stubbornness/vanity project ? We will see, the next season or 2 will show us.

[theHotHead]

Reminds me of PHW's infamous "thank you for your interest in our affairs" comment

Exactly !!

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Power n Glory]

The open letter didn't mention anything about ticket prices being too high. It was a brief statement about the ticketing system needing to be improved so there aren't as many empty seats.

Josh Kroenke said in a video on the arsenal website, that the fans should not get involved with the clubs finances and instead, should support on the pitch. I agree about them not mentioning ticket prices in the open letter, but they did say that our transfers lacked strategy, the board lacked strong members and how the club felt like an investment vehicle for Kroenke. I can disagree with any of that. All are important points.

On transfer strategy....is it case of us not having one or is it just fans disagreeing with our approach? Some would be happy for to us spend £80m on Zaha. Others wouldn't. Trying to sign young prospects that could become future stars is still a strategy even if we'd prefer more senior players that are ready to play now. But the window still isn't closed. I don't know if we can really talk about things working or not working. The strategy could have been to take it to deadline day where activity can speed up and prices drop.

I still maintain that this letter wouldn't have gone out if we had just spent silly money on a player or even £80m on Zaha. Alarm bells on ownership tend to ring most during slow transfer windows. The same could be said about us lacking direction, strategy and leadership even when we spend silly money. But those sort of conversations tend to happen after we've blown a massive hole in our budget and spent unwisely.

Only you are really pushing the sign zaha for 80m upfront narrative, practically everyone is ready to be pragmatic.

If they stick to 80m (would be a surprise tbh seeing as they asked that for bissaka and sold for 55m weeks later) its obvs too much right now and we should aggressively chase alternatives.

Having said that, we are obviously scrimping on an extra 5-10m upfront for tierney for example, so the funds would help.

Sealing:

Tierney
Everton or zaha
Ceballos (option to buy)
Starting CB for this season (ie not saliba)

Would be a step in the right direction. Getting everton and zaha would be a bigger step.

We've lived through slow windows for years, this isnt a new thing. A new thing would be actually completing all of these deals before deadline and not leaving us with deadwood or even worse 1 first team signing and a kid that wont play for us this season.

This is an open forum Zedie. I can see what you post on the Zaha thread.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31526&start=345

We should at least be trying instead of guarding our millions like a vagrant defending his last sip of super tenants.

10m plus 60m add ons isnt trying.

That was yesterday evening!

Anything over £40m is too much! We're in this mess because we have spent unwisely so I stand by what I have said above.

Also, I just noticed Gooner LK6's post breaking down how much we have spent over the last seasons and being pissed when looking at our reported budget for this season.

Yeah that was poorly worded.

60m of which 10m is initial payment for example with the rest being 50m of add ons like 40m for a ballon dor win within 2 days of signing etc.

You get the picture.

Have a look at the Tierney debacle and how ridiculously we are splitting the payments. It's a good reason why we are a few weeks away from deadline with no senior signings.

Poorly worded? It doesn't look like it's just a problem with the payment structure from where I'm sitting. You just posted the following this morning.

250m in the bank kronke refuses to use
30m extra a season in private funding kronke refuses to add to our budget

Mate, we've been here before and we've been preying for deadline day signings only to see critical positions unfilled and us continue to struggle because of it.

I'll celebrate when weve actually got these over the line and even then, it remains to be seen how Emery manages them and how far we go next season.

That's your response to CynicalGooner who posted the following who is arguing against blowing hole in the budget for one player.

What millions? From what I can see we are actually trying to sign a handful of players this summer which is more than I expected to be frank. Doesn't look like we're guarding anything, we just can't blow it all on one player

[EliteKiller]

Where do you think the gate receipts and merchandise purchases come from?

Is kronke buying all the tickets and shirts?

Re match day income - if tickets remain unsold and empty seats, banners, protests, airplanes, media outlets are talking about this all you dont think it's going to affect that 25% share of income stream?

You dont think the waiting list eventually disappearing will affect kronke at all?

Again Zeddie you are just spouting your own pure fiction ....

Firstly Arsenal have had the most consistent ST sales of any London Club for over 50 years ... even with the biggest stadium and some very shit seasons ... so where do you get your inside information from that this is about to change ... we've been pretty shit for a decade yet still there is an enormous season ticket waiting list ... we were here before Kroenke we'll still be here when he's gone ...

Secondly - not sure what planet you're on - but football has grown as the global game exponentially over the last decade, it is now exploding across Asia and Africa ... our income in 2012 was 240m this year it will be 400m .... yet we've gone from title challengers to outside the top four, so on the pitch just about as bad as it can get .... right now the only way for us is up not down.

So why the fictional doom and gloom - are you walking away from our club? - so why make up the claim that everyone else is? it's pure fiction ...

In the real world we've just signed the biggest kit sponsorship deal in our history, a huge increase in our shirt sponsorship deal to our biggest ever, we've added 20% to our corporate facilities ... feck we even reached a European final ... just how entitled are you?

We are not falling out of the top six, why would an owner put in 550m and then allow that? ... have some patience and for fucks sake stop putting our club down .... our fans all leaving? our marketing collapsing? that's only a reality in your strange little universe, in the real world it's bollocks.

[Zedie]

Where do you think the gate receipts and merchandise purchases come from?

Is kronke buying all the tickets and shirts?

Re match day income - if tickets remain unsold and empty seats, banners, protests, airplanes, media outlets are talking about this all you dont think it's going to affect that 25% share of income stream?

You dont think the waiting list eventually disappearing will affect kronke at all?

Again Zeddie you are just spouting your own pure fiction ....

Firstly Arsenal have had the most consistent ST sales of any London Club for over 50 years ... even with the biggest stadium and some very shit seasons ... so where do you get your inside information from that this is about to change ... we've been pretty shit for a decade yet still there is an enormous season ticket waiting list ... we were here before Kroenke we'll still be here when he's gone ...

Secondly - not sure what planet you're on - but football has grown as the global game exponentially over the last decade, it is now exploding across Asia and Africa ... our income in 2012 was 240m this year it will be 400m .... yet we've gone from title challengers to outside the top four, so on the pitch just about as bad as it can get .... right now the only way for us is up not down.

So why the fictional doom and gloom - are you walking away from our club? - so why make up the claim that everyone else is? it's pure fiction ...

In the real world we've just signed the biggest kit sponsorship deal in our history, a huge increase in our shirt sponsorship deal to our biggest ever, we've added 20% to our corporate facilities ... feck we even reached a European final ... just how entitled are you?

We are not falling out of the top six, why would an owner put in 550m and then allow that? ... have some patience and for fucks sake stop putting our club down .... our fans all leaving? our marketing collapsing? that's only a reality in your strange little universe, in the real world it's bollocks.

I know when you're sunk because you cant directly directly address simple points as per the above.

You fall back on percentages and insults to avoid simple truths.

You then start exaggerating the simple point you struggle with like clockwork.

The wriggling out of addressing simple simple points is painful to read tbh.

[theHotHead]

Zedie it is you that fail to address points. You regurgitate the same nonsense in every post then you make up fictional scenarios that are clearly not the case. Every question you have asked has been answered, its just bluster coming from you now.

Having seen that the mighty Wolves have over the past 3 years a higher net spend than us I think we SHOULD be spending more, we can bloody afford it. However, I do not want us to go down the route of Chelsea, Man U and Man City in spending silly money. Its not my money but I don't care. I wasn't us to do things the right way and a sustainable way. Chelsea are f***ked when Abramavich has had enough of his toy.

[EliteKiller]

I know when you're sunk because you cant directly directly address simple points as per the above.

You fall back on percentages and insults to avoid simple truths.

You then start exaggerating the simple point you struggle with like clockwork.

The wriggling out of addressing simple simple points is painful to read tbh.

What simple points? I directly addressed your own words .... here's exactly what you wrote ............

tickets remain unsold and empty seats, banners, protests, airplanes, media outlets are talking about this all you don't think it's going to affect that 25% share of income stream?

TV revenue accounts for twice as much as match day revenue? I guess he'll just shrug off a third of that total income bracket drying up

Here's the reality - we have the best and most consistent match-day income of all the London clubs ... our ST sales and waiting list have remained rock solid over the last fifty years of many ups and downs ... whilst admittedly this last response is speculation I say with 100% confidence that despite your gloom and doom we are not all abandoning our club, indeed most of us are looking forward to things improving ...

I assumed from your own words that the points you were trying to make were that Arsenal fans will stop supporting the club, and that ticket sales would cease ... were you making a different point? if so what the hell was it?

[Zedie]

Zedie it is you that fail to address points. You regurgitate the same nonsense in every post then you make up fictional scenarios that are clearly not the case. Every question you have asked has been answered, its just bluster coming from you now.

Having seen that the mighty Wolves have over the past 3 years a higher net spend than us I think we SHOULD be spending more, we can bloody afford it. However, I do not want us to go down the route of Chelsea, Man U and Man City in spending silly money. Its not my money but I don't care. I wasn't us to do things the right way and a sustainable way. Chelsea are f***ked when Abramavich has had enough of his toy.

This is insanity.

I've been saying the whole time that we can spend more responsibly and pointing to our cash reserves and ability to spend privately within FFP rules this whole time and you've been arguing against me for that same time.

Now you want to claim that you want us to spend more responsibly?

Who said anything about chelsea or city level spending? Not f***ing me.

I've repeatedly pointed that they do spend what they are able to outside of self generated funds, I didnt say yeah let's go out and match them toe to toe.

That's a fallacy you guys have created by virtue of not being able to agree with anything I say even if it comes from your own sources.

Realistically, the sort of Corp or individual that will buy is will have money so long, they'll be able to clear any personal debt from kronke along with the value of the shares.

I'll keep saying what I'm saying until something changes, and right now, we have not made one senior signing and thats simply not good enough with 3 weeks left.

Soon teams start planning for life with our target because they csnt find a replacement or someone else comes in and offers what they have been asking for or the price goes up because now were desperate.

Weve lived this many times before and it's happening again.

[CynicalGooner]

Regarding the ST waiting list, I don't think that's really a thing these days. It drops by about 5,000 every year and a lot of people on it reject one when they get offered it. That was the real reason Wenger had to go

[Power n Glory]

Zedie it is you that fail to address points. You regurgitate the same nonsense in every post then you make up fictional scenarios that are clearly not the case. Every question you have asked has been answered, its just bluster coming from you now.

Having seen that the mighty Wolves have over the past 3 years a higher net spend than us I think we SHOULD be spending more, we can bloody afford it. However, I do not want us to go down the route of Chelsea, Man U and Man City in spending silly money. Its not my money but I don't care. I wasn't us to do things the right way and a sustainable way. Chelsea are f***ked when Abramavich has had enough of his toy.

This is insanity.

I've been saying the whole time that we can spend more responsibly and pointing to our cash reserves and ability to spend privately within FFP rules this whole time and you've been arguing against me for that same time.

Depends on what you think is reasonable. It's confusing to me because the below isn't a proposal to spend wisely.

You're still going at in on the Zaha thread. Zaha!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31526&start=345

Nope.

Ffp allows us to spend a max 30m private funds over 3 years, but allows you to clear that balance every year for each of those 3 years through player sales etc.

So you can spend a max 90m private funds ie kronke hands in pocket but have to balance at least 60m by the end of the 3 year period.

We also have the new Adidas deal that's kicked in

Weve also cleared 24m a year of wages with Ramsey welbeck etc leaving.

We also have 230m(?) Self generated funds that we can use fully IF WE WANTED TO. WE COULD USE ANY AMOUNT WE WANTED TO OUT OF IT, IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE ALL JUST WHAT WE WANT TO (this part in capitals is specifically for power n glory, elite and jayram who will try to hijack this point and twist it into me saying we have to spend it all immediately).

This is all actions we have already taken or have the ability to implement today of from the start of the season in the case of the 30m private funding part.

Outside of that, we can still sell players which in turn saves us more wages and creates a bigger cash balance to spend.

We can afford all our targets right now if negotiated correctly and if kronke puts his hand in his pocket.

He chooses not to and we arent selling anyone for some reason.

[Zedie]

Regarding the ST waiting list, I don't think that's really a thing these days. It drops by about 5,000 every year and a lot of people on it reject one when they get offered it. That was the real reason Wenger had to go

Yup. The waiting list was nuts when we were invincible. Now not so much as tickets are so expensive for the quality of football, results and lack of investment. Wenger's gone now but the same investment issues remain so supporters are getting tired of it.

The club and elite assumes that these things will stay constant regardless of performance and I'm really not sure why.

[EliteKiller]

Regarding the ST waiting list, I don't think that's really a thing these days. It drops by about 5,000 every year and a lot of people on it reject one when they get offered it. That was the real reason Wenger had to go

Very hard to get a number on this ... 45,000 is often banded about, but the club are very shy about saying how many 15 pounds they get ... what is not denied is the fact that all season tickets that come up for sale are sold immediately to the list (it's about 4,000 a year) and it would seem a similar number sign up and replace those on the list. I would guess that the club could still easily sell all the ST's two or three times over ... and that's at the eye-watering prices we charge now ....

Despite all the gloom and doom around the club our worldwide fan base has grown 50% in the last decade ... sure we've been crap but the fans aren't all running away ... remember like all fans we still have that little glimmer of belief that every season says "this will be our year" ......

[Zedie]

Zedie it is you that fail to address points. You regurgitate the same nonsense in every post then you make up fictional scenarios that are clearly not the case. Every question you have asked has been answered, its just bluster coming from you now.

Having seen that the mighty Wolves have over the past 3 years a higher net spend than us I think we SHOULD be spending more, we can bloody afford it. However, I do not want us to go down the route of Chelsea, Man U and Man City in spending silly money. Its not my money but I don't care. I wasn't us to do things the right way and a sustainable way. Chelsea are f***ked when Abramavich has had enough of his toy.

This is insanity.

I've been saying the whole time that we can spend more responsibly and pointing to our cash reserves and ability to spend privately within FFP rules this whole time and you've been arguing against me for that same time.

Depends on what you think is reasonable. It's confusing to me because the below isn't a proposal to spend wisely.

You're still going at in on the Zaha thread. Zaha!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31526&start=345

Nope.

Ffp allows us to spend a max 30m private funds over 3 years, but allows you to clear that balance every year for each of those 3 years through player sales etc.

So you can spend a max 90m private funds ie kronke hands in pocket but have to balance at least 60m by the end of the 3 year period.

We also have the new Adidas deal that's kicked in

Weve also cleared 24m a year of wages with Ramsey welbeck etc leaving.

We also have 230m(?) Self generated funds that we can use fully IF WE WANTED TO. WE COULD USE ANY AMOUNT WE WANTED TO OUT OF IT, IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE ALL JUST WHAT WE WANT TO (this part in capitals is specifically for power n glory, elite and jayram who will try to hijack this point and twist it into me saying we have to spend it all immediately).

This is all actions we have already taken or have the ability to implement today of from the start of the season in the case of the 30m private funding part.

Outside of that, we can still sell players which in turn saves us more wages and creates a bigger cash balance to spend.

We can afford all our targets right now if negotiated correctly and if kronke puts his hand in his pocket.

He chooses not to and we arent selling anyone for some reason.

I've spelled it out many times mate, you just dont want to acknowledge it and keep going to extremes.

You seem to have missed the part in capitals out conveniently too plus quite a few other posts spelling it all out in the most basic detail possible.

At this stage, I'm really not sure how you can be confused by any of what I've said.