Rob Holding joins Crystal Palace

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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Salibatelli » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:41 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:There’s better CBS for 50 million for sure.


Who is better than White for the role he plays in our back 4 for less than £50m?
Let me guess.. SaLIbA? :rofll:


Role? A central defenders job is to defend so on that basis Rudiger, Skriniar, Koulibaly, Kounde, Slavic, Torres.

As for Saliba, hopefully he comes back in the summer to showcase his talents, pretty sure he will impress.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:58 am

Salibatelli wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:There’s better CBS for 50 million for sure.


Who is better than White for the role he plays in our back 4 for less than £50m?
Let me guess.. SaLIbA? :rofll:


Role? A central defenders job is to defend so on that basis Rudiger, Skriniar, Koulibaly, Kounde, Slavic, Torres.

As for Saliba, hopefully he comes back in the summer to showcase his talents, pretty sure he will impress.


Yes. Role.
His job isn’t to just defend, which he does well, it is also to build attacks and distribute the ball.
He does that very well.
For the role he plays for us, I can’t think of anyone as good that we could have got for less.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby KG3 » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:55 am

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KG3 wrote:I find it funny that people comment on how bad Holding is and yet praise White, to me they have the same level of defensive ability, honestly if Ben white wasn’t good at passing and building from the back, can most of say you’d rate him highly or rate him at all?

No, thats why I said we paid far too much for him. The passing ability is made into somewhat of a big deal at the moment but to be honest because the focus has shifted from just being a big lump at the back to stop people there are loads more ball playing CBs. So why we had to spend £50m on one is a mystery, could've spent £20m max and got the same!


Exactly in fact we could have spent 0 as we already have Saliba/Mavropanos two highly talented defenders who both deserve a chance here, when they end up leaving due to lack of chances and find their way to a top team like Gnabry did we will be the ones looking like idiots.

Saliba/Mavropanos fighting out for a spot alongside Gabriel, Chambers 4th choice, Tomiyasu 5th for emergency

Mari and Holding sold

50M we could have spend on a better player than Xhaka, that’s how any other manager would have used this squad.

Look at Klopp Liverpool fans wouldn’t have been bothered had he sold Henderson, Firminho, Milner, Origi, Lallana as soon as he come in, but he gave them a chance and turned them into top players.

That is how you use your squad Nketiah, Holding, Cedric, Mari have all had a thousand chances yet the likes of Saliba, Mavropanos, Niles, Nelson and Guendouzi have been pushed away with zero to minimal chances, they already have replacements it’s just a misuse of funds.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:50 am

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
KG3 wrote:I find it funny that people comment on how bad Holding is and yet praise White, to me they have the same level of defensive ability, honestly if Ben white wasn’t good at passing and building from the back, can most of say you’d rate him highly or rate him at all?

No, thats why I said we paid far too much for him. The passing ability is made into somewhat of a big deal at the moment but to be honest because the focus has shifted from just being a big lump at the back to stop people there are loads more ball playing CBs. So why we had to spend £50m on one is a mystery, could've spent £20m max and got the same!


Don't be silly. £20m?
We sold Willock for £25m :biggrin:

Our entire back 5 has been a massive success. If you had said to me a year ago that we'd spend £90m for a solid defence, I'd have bitten your hand off.
In fact the entire back 5 is what, £140m. That's f***ing brilliant business.
Is White worth £50m? Who knows and who cares. Our defence is, for the first time in a long time, organised and solid.

And Willock scored in 9 or so consecutive Prem games for Newcastle. Ben White is nothing special Jay, nothing you say changes it. He doesn't have any standout attributes, he is a standard CB. Face it.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:52 am

Reiss wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Reiss wrote:White is in a different league to Holding.

Holding is stiff and limited.

White is dynamic, agile and a modern day defender by all definitions.


He's also younger with the capacity to improve. We talk about White being poor in the air but I think Holding is worse. Besides being stiff, slow and limited, his awareness sometimes is shocking.


Holding wouldn't get into many premiership teams. He's a championship player.

While I agree with the consensus I don't think he is worse than a lot of Prem CBs, he is a meat and veg basic English defender, vanilla lol.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:54 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Reiss wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Reiss wrote:White is in a different league to Holding.

Holding is stiff and limited.

White is dynamic, agile and a modern day defender by all definitions.


He's also younger with the capacity to improve. We talk about White being poor in the air but I think Holding is worse. Besides being stiff, slow and limited, his awareness sometimes is shocking.


Holding wouldn't get into many premiership teams. He's a championship player.



I think Holding is a lower half PL defender. White is top class for the role he has been asked to play for Arsenal. Not sure there is anyone in the PL who can do it better. That's why we worked so hard to sign him and it's paid big dividends so far.

Give it a rest dude - top class my arse ! He has been decent, I can happily admit that, but you go too far Jay !

Top class is Saka, a standout, a player that could grace any team. Ben White is not.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Salibatelli » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:22 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:There’s better CBS for 50 million for sure.


Who is better than White for the role he plays in our back 4 for less than £50m?
Let me guess.. SaLIbA? :rofll:


Role? A central defenders job is to defend so on that basis Rudiger, Skriniar, Koulibaly, Kounde, Slavic, Torres.

As for Saliba, hopefully he comes back in the summer to showcase his talents, pretty sure he will impress.


Yes. Role.
His job isn’t to just defend, which he does well, it is also to build attacks and distribute the ball.
He does that very well.
For the role he plays for us, I can’t think of anyone as good that we could have got for less.


I listed players we could have got which would have been better.

White has been OK but I think you go way over the top about his impact, as you do about all our new signings.

Some have been a hit (Ramsdale and Tomiyasu) and others have been OK, they certainly aren’t all the big hits you think they are.

The issue with White is the price tag, he’s just not worth that and we could have got a better player for that, but as HH said we could have spent less on a CB of his level as well and used the money on another position.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:33 pm

Salibatelli wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:There’s better CBS for 50 million for sure.


Who is better than White for the role he plays in our back 4 for less than £50m?
Let me guess.. SaLIbA? :rofll:


Role? A central defenders job is to defend so on that basis Rudiger, Skriniar, Koulibaly, Kounde, Slavic, Torres.

As for Saliba, hopefully he comes back in the summer to showcase his talents, pretty sure he will impress.


Yes. Role.
His job isn’t to just defend, which he does well, it is also to build attacks and distribute the ball.
He does that very well.
For the role he plays for us, I can’t think of anyone as good that we could have got for less.


I listed players we could have got which would have been better.

White has been OK but I think you go way over the top about his impact, as you do about all our new signings.

Some have been a hit (Ramsdale and Tomiyasu) and others have been OK, they certainly aren’t all the big hits you think they are.

The issue with White is the price tag, he’s just not worth that and we could have got a better player for that, but as HH said we could have spent less on a CB of his level as well and used the money on another position.


Tomiyasu - hit
Ramsdale - hit
White - hit
Odegaard - hit
Lokonga - good but not a hit yet (but shown excellent talent)
Tavares - good but not a hit yet (but shown excellent talent)

It would take someone in denial to pretend to themselves that our transfer window was not excellent.
Why you are in denial is another question.

As for Benny Blanco
Let's have a look at the defensive contributions direct from the Premier League site

Image

Seems to me that Benjamin, Gabriel and Tomi have all stepped up. In fact, when you consider White's skills going forward along with him leading in many defensive areas (including aeriel duels percentage won :sneaky2: ) he's possibly the BEST of our back line right now, but at the very least as effective as both Gabriel and Tomi.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Salibatelli » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:05 pm

Tomiyasu and Ramsdale have been consistently good, so they’re hits.

Odegaard started badly, improved but we’ll have to see how he gets on going forward

White has made plenty of errors and has some glaring weaknesses in his game, definitely not worth 50 million on that basis you cannot call him a hit.

Lokonga doesn’t look ready, on that basis he’s not a hit right, likewise Tavares he started well but his performances have dipped.

You’ve been going on about how amazing our transfer window time and time again, yes there’s been positives but it’s not quite as amazing as you’re saying.

The season has been up and down, we had a few months of abject displays and some bad defeats, we then improved again and have now lost our last 2 again (though we did play well against City, but ultimately we lost due to our own mistakes).

Still a long way to go in the season and all that matters is the end result, if we end the season without top 4 and fail in the CC as well it will have been a failure given we have no European football and how other teams have really stuttered thus really opening up the race for top 4.

We’ve had a good run and some good performances for a few weeks but it will count for nothing if we don’t end up achieving anything.

I wouldn’t consider top 6, given we have less games than our rivals, spent 150 million in the summer (and are looking at spending more as well) and that our rivals have been poor a good result personally.

On the subject of Holding, he was very poor the other day, but White wasn’t a lot better either, the whole team was poor tbh.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:19 pm

Salibatelli wrote:Tomiyasu and Ramsdale have been consistently good, so they’re hits.

Odegaard started badly, improved but we’ll have to see how he gets on going forward

White has made plenty of errors and has some glaring weaknesses in his game, definitely not worth 50 million on that basis you cannot call him a hit.

Lokonga doesn’t look ready, on that basis he’s not a hit right, likewise Tavares he started well but his performances have dipped.

You’ve been going on about how amazing our transfer window time and time again, yes there’s been positives but it’s not quite as amazing as you’re saying.

The season has been up and down, we had a few months of abject displays and some bad defeats, we then improved again and have now lost our last 2 again (though we did play well against City, but ultimately we lost due to our own mistakes).

Still a long way to go in the season and all that matters is the end result, if we end the season without top 4 and fail in the CC as well it will have been a failure given we have no European football and how other teams have really stuttered thus really opening up the race for top 4.

We’ve had a good run and some good performances for a few weeks but it will count for nothing if we don’t end up achieving anything.

I wouldn’t consider top 6, given we have less games than our rivals, spent 150 million in the summer (and are looking at spending more as well) and that our rivals have been poor a good result personally.


You've shown your hand on this, though. In the Forest game you made a claim after 14 minutes that White was being beaten nearly every time by Davis in their duels. I watched that 14 minutes again and logged their duels and as it turns out White won almost everything against Davis.
Detail of this first 14 minutes here:
https://www.goonersworld.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32736&p=2009224#p2009038

You either lied because you wanted to drive an agenda or you a pre disposed to pay more attention to anything White does wrong.
He hasn't made 'plenty of errors' at all. He's made about as many as Gabriel or any other top defender. It's just you are focused on them for your own reasons.
That makes your opinion on White entirely worthless. It doesn't come from a place or either objectivity or reality.

As the PL numbers show above, defensively White is easily performing at the levels of Tomiyasu and Gabriel and his forward play with the ball has been excellent. You, for example, have said several times that he can't head the ball, yet he is our BEST defender in aerial duels, better even that Tomiyasu who we recognise is strong in that area.

Odegaard has played well this season. He's really developed well. Earlier in the season he was pressing very well and now he's shining in terms of his passing and chance creation. Any objective fan would call him a good signing.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Losmeister » Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:42 am

Holding is, i think, a pretty solid 2nd option.
Kai Havertz nutmegged ur GK
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby thebigbangtheo » Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:09 am

Going from his floundering against Sterling last season to this cameo performance against Wolves perfectly showcases the extremes of what we tend to get with Samson Holding in that he isn't consistently bad over a prolonged period of games nor is he consistently good, but somewhat in-between.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Fran Solo » Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:29 am

thebigbangtheo wrote:Going from his floundering against Sterling last season to this cameo performance against Wolves perfectly showcases the extremes of what we tend to get with Samson Holding in that he isn't consistently bad over a prolonged period of games nor is he consistently good, but somewhat in-between.


I won't call him a bad player. He is the typical Arsenal player of late. Frustratingly inconsistent.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:47 am

Looks good in a back 3, so an option.
Let him and Saliba fight it out for 3rd CB in the summer.
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Re: Rob Holding (16)

Postby Salibatelli » Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:51 am

He puts in the odd good display like the other day, but we’ve seen over many years he’s not quite up to the level we need.

Think it’s time to move him on.
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