Callum wrote:EliteKiller wrote:I'm in 100% agreement ... believe it or not I was on the fence back in '16 ... the EU provides a huge number of benefits, the question for me was is that a price worth paying ... since the vote, and I firmly believe that a referendum result should be followed even if half the people voting are idiots, my view has swung strongly towards Leave. Two main reasons, the decline of the EU across pretty much all measurable data, and the clear view demonstrated by the EU that the UK is an annoying irritation not a partner, that's partly our fault as the UK have never fully bought in, we didn't even take on the Euro, and because of that the EU have never really accepted us just taken our contribution. That's my view right or wrong and I'll stand by it until it's proven incorrect.
Can I ask why you believe the "price is worth paying"? I struggle to see what we're going to gain out of all this. All a UK citizen, all I see is the loss of my rights as an EU citizen, a massively weakened economy and a politically weaker Britain as a result. I can't see how we become stronger by isolating ourselves from our European neighbours, both economically and politically. I wish I saw some of these proposed benefits of Brexit but I've yet to see anything remotely convincing. We're losing so much and gaining so little, as far as I can see. We're an EU member and have all of the privileges that come with that, and also have the benefit of not needing to join the Euro or be part of Schengen.
My issues with the Remainers are multiple, absolutely no problem with raising all the perceived problems which Leaving the UK might engender, however a constant 'project fear' diatribe of doom and gloom, starving millions, no trade, collapsed economy ... get over it ... even the worst case scenarios are no worse than in previous recessions, we will survive. Add to that the need to call anyone who supports Brexit a 'moron' 'fool' 'blind' 'stupid' and then all the expletives you care to name ... just what is that achieving?
I find this idea to "get over it" just, well, odd. Given what's at stake, and given the numerous prediction from analysts across the board that Brexit will be harmful to the Britain in a variety of ways, why is criticism of this decision automatically written off as "Project Fear"? I'm not accusing you of this, but it seems to me this rhetoric is part of the post-truth world where we live in, where the opinions of multiple experts are dismissed in favour of the opinions of some bloke down the pub. I can't watch Question Time for this reason anymore. I see people say "just get on with it and get out" when they obviously have no care or consideration for the immense amount of time and political effort required for this to happen.
With regards to the name-calling, I agree to some extent - there's been vitriol from both sides and the whole issue has divided the country in a nasty way. My own take is that that Brexit was in part fuelled by racism and xenophobia, but that's not to say every person who voted for it did so for those reasons. It should never have gone to a public vote, it wasn't clear what we were voting. Some people who voted Brexit did so believing we'd end up like Norway, and others wanted the hardest Brexit possible. Those two scenarios are vastly different.
I'm no Corbyn fan but I can admire the way he's stuck by his principles no need to call him names, same goes for May no fan at all but she tried her best, Boris well let's wait and see not just c*** him off at every opportunity ... there are some, many in fact, not fit for purpose Farage, Abbot, Hammond and a whole heap more shouldn't be even close to running this country, but they still don't warrant endless abuse (well maybe a bit)
I feel the same about Corbyn, but genuinely cannot stand Johnson. The man has a chequered history and seems utterly devoid of principles. He was pro-EU for years then changed when it became politically convenient for him to do so. You can make the argument that all politicians to do this I just don't buy it, personally.
The biggest gripe, as expressed today is this endless negativity, it's blindingly obvious that Boris has hit the ground running like him or hate him he's shaking up what had become the biggest clusterfuck in recent history ... we will now either Leave or get a GE where if Remain are indeed in the majority they will take power ... either way finally Brexit will be finished ... how is that not a good thing?
For me, it's the fact we have a full Brexiteer government in charge now, and any attempts at reconciliation and unity are nothing more than token gestures. I can't just sit back and say "at least it'll be over soon" because, in my opinion, Brexit is going to be devastating for this country, and I can't relax about it. I don't want it to happen and feel the people should get their say on it again now that we know more about what Brexit will actually be like, not the incredibly vague idea everyone had in 2016.
If you want to Leave then get behind Boris (that sticks in the throat but there it is) is you want to Remain find a party and support them ... To just carry on complaining about the side you don't like? that's US level bollocks and it's insidious ... we should try to be better
You can't expect people to sit back and just accept this stuff if they don't agree with it. There always needs to be an opposition, and to hold the government accountable. The reason why we're in this position is because UKIP and the right-wing of the Tory government pressured Cameron into gambling and holding the referendum in the first place so that they could get what they wanted. Are people on the other side now expected to shut up and stop complaining?