Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby themessiah » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:10 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:EK, are the players really that bad ? I don't think so at all. Its all well and good saying its the 4th manager they have seen off but the personnel is not the same and when managers are frankly idiotic, how can the players be blamed ?!!

Arsene Wenger's main squad during his final season was (league):
Mkhi, Ramsey, Laca, Wilshere, Auba, Ozil, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Chambers, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Cech, Elneny.

Emery's main squad during his last season was (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Sokratis, Ceballos, Laca, Ozil, Torreira, Auba, AMN, Pepe, Mustafi, Chambers, Luiz, Guendouzi, Kolasinac, Xhaka, Saka

Arteta's main squad this season (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Tierney, Gabriel, Saka, Ceballos, Laca, Willian, Auba, Holding, Pepe, Luiz, Elneny, Xhaka

Only Bellerin, Laca, Auba, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny played under Wenger. Emery didn't give Elneny game time. The players in this list that I don't think should be called Arsenal players are Holding, Xhaka and Elneny. We all know they are sub standard, but subsequent managers have not replaced them !! I call that managerial stupidity. No way Vinai and co would veto their sales, had the then Head Coaches wanted to get rid of them. Bellerin in fact is lucky to still be called an Arsenal player, he too is sub standard.

Then, lets not forget Emery's attempt at playing Torreira - a recognised DM as a more attcking midfielder. Lets not forget the second half transformations and substitutions during the unbeaten run that saved his skin. I can't blame the players when the Head Coach is total knob.

I don't need to explain Wenger's shortcomings, needless to say I can't blame the players or find fault with them, how can you be expected to perform to your ability when the manager is totally clueless to the issues.

Arteta is an interesting one, because he has proven that the players ARE capable of playing better as a team, he got the very same players defending better whilst not affecting their offensive capability. Then, he decides to shift the sliding scale and go hella defensive, whilst not playing Ozil who at least can link play. The end result has been some of the most embarrassing and dreadful performances I have seen from Arsenal in the Premier League era. And now, because of his dreadful tinkering, lineups and systems, he has completely blunted our attack AND the defence has turned leaky again.

How can anyone blame the players ? I gave Arteta the credit for turning us around, NOT the players, so I am blaming Arteta for our demise. The players are capable of better, unless those who blame the players think that 14th in the league is their level ........ which is utter nonsense.


Again I get your point ... but you miss a key element ... Holding, Xhaka and Elneny are all on contracts no other club are interested in matching - even if a buyer could be found that player would have to be willing to accept a huge pay-cut to move. A manager can't replace a player if in reality he can't get rid of them, he can kick them out of the squad, but look how that's worked out, or her can pay them off and clearly we couldn't afford to do that.

We have this issue with Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Luiz, Willian, Soares and now we've added Auba ... we can't sell these players because their contracts are to expensive, it's almost certain that they will all run down and another seven players will need replacing with almost no transfer income.

This is the very problem that Wenger created with his crazy egalitarian contract policy, a policy which we simply can't seem to get away from.

Maybe this summer we will have the balls to deal with it - out will go Luiz, Ozil, Willian, Sokratis, Auba, Laca, Soares, Mustafi - the downside is that these exits will raise barely 100m and we will need well over 300m to fill those squad places .... so where does that come from?

In reality just like the last four years we will do a patch job - we will keep three or four players we all know aren't anywhere near Arsenal quality, players who should leave. Why? because even on their huge wages it's cheaper to keep them for another year than buy an Arsenal quality replacement, so Laca, Auba, Willian, Xhaka probably all stay - thus once again pushing a problem to another summer, and likely another manager.

That's before we've even looked at the upgrades so badly needed for Ceballos, Elneny, Bellerin ....

So yes the players are 'that bad' not just in terms of performance but also in terms of their asset value ... if we had an oligarch or a sheikh not a problem, they can bin a 72m keeper without a care ... but like most clubs we simply can't, we're now in a very deep hole and we're still digging ... at some point we are going to have to change to the Spurs/Liverpool/Leicester where you sell em' high not watch them retire, if we don't then top four might as well be on the moon.



He has been frozen out and Rightly so

Aye, cause Özil is our f***ing saviour. Remind you of the Emery era much? How did he repay Emery, oh yeah, battered 4-1 in Baku. Ozil is a tremendous human being, however, as a footballer, he needs to go elsewhere. He's finished. Ozil isn’t the answer ffs

Unai, Freddie and Arteta all dropped Ozil for his attitude, and Wenger admitted that neither he nor our medical staff could explain Ozil’s mystery illnesses or mystery back injury. So maybe, just maybe, Mesut isn’t our saviour after all.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:59 pm

themessiah wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:EK, are the players really that bad ? I don't think so at all. Its all well and good saying its the 4th manager they have seen off but the personnel is not the same and when managers are frankly idiotic, how can the players be blamed ?!!

Arsene Wenger's main squad during his final season was (league):
Mkhi, Ramsey, Laca, Wilshere, Auba, Ozil, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Chambers, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Cech, Elneny.

Emery's main squad during his last season was (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Sokratis, Ceballos, Laca, Ozil, Torreira, Auba, AMN, Pepe, Mustafi, Chambers, Luiz, Guendouzi, Kolasinac, Xhaka, Saka

Arteta's main squad this season (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Tierney, Gabriel, Saka, Ceballos, Laca, Willian, Auba, Holding, Pepe, Luiz, Elneny, Xhaka

Only Bellerin, Laca, Auba, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny played under Wenger. Emery didn't give Elneny game time. The players in this list that I don't think should be called Arsenal players are Holding, Xhaka and Elneny. We all know they are sub standard, but subsequent managers have not replaced them !! I call that managerial stupidity. No way Vinai and co would veto their sales, had the then Head Coaches wanted to get rid of them. Bellerin in fact is lucky to still be called an Arsenal player, he too is sub standard.

Then, lets not forget Emery's attempt at playing Torreira - a recognised DM as a more attcking midfielder. Lets not forget the second half transformations and substitutions during the unbeaten run that saved his skin. I can't blame the players when the Head Coach is total knob.

I don't need to explain Wenger's shortcomings, needless to say I can't blame the players or find fault with them, how can you be expected to perform to your ability when the manager is totally clueless to the issues.

Arteta is an interesting one, because he has proven that the players ARE capable of playing better as a team, he got the very same players defending better whilst not affecting their offensive capability. Then, he decides to shift the sliding scale and go hella defensive, whilst not playing Ozil who at least can link play. The end result has been some of the most embarrassing and dreadful performances I have seen from Arsenal in the Premier League era. And now, because of his dreadful tinkering, lineups and systems, he has completely blunted our attack AND the defence has turned leaky again.

How can anyone blame the players ? I gave Arteta the credit for turning us around, NOT the players, so I am blaming Arteta for our demise. The players are capable of better, unless those who blame the players think that 14th in the league is their level ........ which is utter nonsense.


Again I get your point ... but you miss a key element ... Holding, Xhaka and Elneny are all on contracts no other club are interested in matching - even if a buyer could be found that player would have to be willing to accept a huge pay-cut to move. A manager can't replace a player if in reality he can't get rid of them, he can kick them out of the squad, but look how that's worked out, or her can pay them off and clearly we couldn't afford to do that.

We have this issue with Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Luiz, Willian, Soares and now we've added Auba ... we can't sell these players because their contracts are to expensive, it's almost certain that they will all run down and another seven players will need replacing with almost no transfer income.

This is the very problem that Wenger created with his crazy egalitarian contract policy, a policy which we simply can't seem to get away from.

Maybe this summer we will have the balls to deal with it - out will go Luiz, Ozil, Willian, Sokratis, Auba, Laca, Soares, Mustafi - the downside is that these exits will raise barely 100m and we will need well over 300m to fill those squad places .... so where does that come from?

In reality just like the last four years we will do a patch job - we will keep three or four players we all know aren't anywhere near Arsenal quality, players who should leave. Why? because even on their huge wages it's cheaper to keep them for another year than buy an Arsenal quality replacement, so Laca, Auba, Willian, Xhaka probably all stay - thus once again pushing a problem to another summer, and likely another manager.

That's before we've even looked at the upgrades so badly needed for Ceballos, Elneny, Bellerin ....

So yes the players are 'that bad' not just in terms of performance but also in terms of their asset value ... if we had an oligarch or a sheikh not a problem, they can bin a 72m keeper without a care ... but like most clubs we simply can't, we're now in a very deep hole and we're still digging ... at some point we are going to have to change to the Spurs/Liverpool/Leicester where you sell em' high not watch them retire, if we don't then top four might as well be on the moon.



He has been frozen out and Rightly so

Aye, cause Özil is our f***ing saviour. Remind you of the Emery era much? How did he repay Emery, oh yeah, battered 4-1 in Baku. Ozil is a tremendous human being, however, as a footballer, he needs to go elsewhere. He's finished. Ozil isn’t the answer ffs

Unai, Freddie and Arteta all dropped Ozil for his attitude, and Wenger admitted that neither he nor our medical staff could explain Ozil’s mystery illnesses or mystery back injury. So maybe, just maybe, Mesut isn’t our saviour after all.


Disagree - he was frozen out for non-football reasons.
Ljunberg did not drop him for his attitude. His recent interview explains how highly he rates Ozil, how well he trains, bu how is right for certain matches and not others.
Emery had to concede.
So will Arteta.

Ozil is not THE answer, that is where I agree.
Ozil is AN answer, short term - i.e. half a season - to our complete inability to create enough chances.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby thebigbangtheo » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:07 pm

Apparently, this Ozil thread can now be seen from the international space station. Imagine it if he'd been playing the last 18 months!
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:23 pm

EK, whilst I accept your argument about asset value I do not agree with your assessment that the players are that bad. Sorry, I think that part is way off.

Whilst Arteta wasn't being a fucktard we put in some good performances, there was significant improvement in the performances until the end of the season, we even won a trophy on the strength of those improved performances.

Under Emery in 2019/20, in the 17 games (ok 2 or 3 managed by Freddie) we were on 1.294 pts per game, which would have been good for a total of 49 pts, putting us joint 12th with Everton.

Under Arteta we finished the season (21 games) on an average of 1.619 pts per game, which would put us on 61 pts, level 6th with Spurs and a jump of 2 places from where we eventually finished.

Thats the improvement I am talking about, it was very clear the players adjusted well to Arteta's approach. They were and still are capable of better.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:00 pm

theHotHead wrote:EK, whilst I accept your argument about asset value I do not agree with your assessment that the players are that bad. Sorry, I think that part is way off.

Whilst Arteta wasn't being a fucktard we put in some good performances, there was significant improvement in the performances until the end of the season, we even won a trophy on the strength of those improved performances.

Under Emery in 2019/20, in the 17 games (ok 2 or 3 managed by Freddie) we were on 1.294 pts per game, which would have been good for a total of 49 pts, putting us joint 12th with Everton.

Under Arteta we finished the season (21 games) on an average of 1.619 pts per game, which would put us on 61 pts, level 6th with Spurs and a jump of 2 places from where we eventually finished.

Thats the improvement I am talking about, it was very clear the players adjusted well to Arteta's approach. They were and still are capable of better.


We probably won't ever agree on this - EPL teams are the sum of their parts - Leicester won a title with some pretty average players, but that was the exception not the rule.

If you take any section of our squad - Keepers - Defenders - Midfield - Strikers and then line them up against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, Utd squads that's 20 comparisons, we probably come out top just a couple of times.

Maybe calling them 'bad players' isn't fair, but by no stretch of the imagination are they title or CL winning quality and that's what they should be at our club, take this weekend's game, how many Arsenal players and how many Spurs players in a combined eighteen? The pundits will all be putting up their thoughts on Friday it won't look good.

Arteta's approach has been to try and improve the defence, he's done that but at the expense of the attack, IMO that's because far too many players are far too limited to do more than one thing ... that's a quality issue much more than a tactical one. If one manager had failed to make us better then fair enough, but when three have now tried and failed you have to think just maybe it's the material they are expected to work with that's the real problem.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:48 pm

No no no absolutely not can this lot challenge for the League or CL.There are 3 things I want to make clear. The first is that, this squad is nowhere near as good as any of our rivals, Man U included. The second is that our squad is better than everyone else's. The third is that our squad should be performing at a far higher level than it has done for the past 5 or so years, but due to idiotic decisions from managers we never see the team perform at the level they should be performing at.

Which is why I say most of the players at Arsenal are not actually Arsenal level. If I had my way the only players I would keep are Partey, Tierney, Gabriel and possibly Auba and Leno. I never really rated Auba that much when he was at Dortmund and I think Emi is a better keeper than Leno - on the short number of games he has played for us and his games at Villa so far.

The erosion of quality from the squad is palpable, unfortnately it has become the new norm but we should be striving for far better.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:43 pm

theHotHead wrote:No no no absolutely not can this lot challenge for the League or CL.There are 3 things I want to make clear. The first is that, this squad is nowhere near as good as any of our rivals, Man U included. The second is that our squad is better than everyone else's. The third is that our squad should be performing at a far higher level than it has done for the past 5 or so years, but due to idiotic decisions from managers we never see the team perform at the level they should be performing at.

Which is why I say most of the players at Arsenal are not actually Arsenal level. If I had my way the only players I would keep are Partey, Tierney, Gabriel and possibly Auba and Leno. I never really rated Auba that much when he was at Dortmund and I think Emi is a better keeper than Leno - on the short number of games he has played for us and his games at Villa so far.

The erosion of quality from the squad is palpable, unfortnately it has become the new norm but we should be striving for far better.


I think the quality of our squad is perfectly represented in our league position - maybe we should be a couple of places higher, but no more.
Wolves squad, for example, is better than ours and if we mixed squads with them, only 3-4 of our players would make it into their first team.
I think people still overestimate our players - maybe because our players cost a lot.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:56 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:No no no absolutely not can this lot challenge for the League or CL.There are 3 things I want to make clear. The first is that, this squad is nowhere near as good as any of our rivals, Man U included. The second is that our squad is better than everyone else's. The third is that our squad should be performing at a far higher level than it has done for the past 5 or so years, but due to idiotic decisions from managers we never see the team perform at the level they should be performing at.

Which is why I say most of the players at Arsenal are not actually Arsenal level. If I had my way the only players I would keep are Partey, Tierney, Gabriel and possibly Auba and Leno. I never really rated Auba that much when he was at Dortmund and I think Emi is a better keeper than Leno - on the short number of games he has played for us and his games at Villa so far.

The erosion of quality from the squad is palpable, unfortnately it has become the new norm but we should be striving for far better.


I think the quality of our squad is perfectly represented in our league position - maybe we should be a couple of places higher, but no more.
Wolves squad, for example, is better than ours and if we mixed squads with them, only 3-4 of our players would make it into their first team.
I think people still overestimate our players - maybe because our players cost a lot.

That’s a tough one to agree with. There is enough quality in our squad to be in the top half. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. .
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:37 pm

swipe right wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:No no no absolutely not can this lot challenge for the League or CL.There are 3 things I want to make clear. The first is that, this squad is nowhere near as good as any of our rivals, Man U included. The second is that our squad is better than everyone else's. The third is that our squad should be performing at a far higher level than it has done for the past 5 or so years, but due to idiotic decisions from managers we never see the team perform at the level they should be performing at.

Which is why I say most of the players at Arsenal are not actually Arsenal level. If I had my way the only players I would keep are Partey, Tierney, Gabriel and possibly Auba and Leno. I never really rated Auba that much when he was at Dortmund and I think Emi is a better keeper than Leno - on the short number of games he has played for us and his games at Villa so far.

The erosion of quality from the squad is palpable, unfortnately it has become the new norm but we should be striving for far better.


I think the quality of our squad is perfectly represented in our league position - maybe we should be a couple of places higher, but no more.
Wolves squad, for example, is better than ours and if we mixed squads with them, only 3-4 of our players would make it into their first team.
I think people still overestimate our players - maybe because our players cost a lot.

That’s a tough one to agree with. There is enough quality in our squad to be in the top half. Ridiculous to suggest otherwise. .


MAYBE top half - like I said, we might be a couple of places better than we are currently showing.
We have very few good players.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Santi » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:54 pm

I think on top form we have the 5th best squad. They just don’t perform to that level whenever they don’t f***ing feel like it, making the reality when taking consistency into it, us having the 10th best squad in the league.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:15 pm

Santi wrote:I think on top form we have the 5th best squad. They just don’t perform to that level whenever they don’t f***ing feel like it, making the reality when taking consistency into it, us having the 10th best squad in the league.


How do you get there?

City, Liverpool, Chelsea >>>>>> Arsenal that's not even a debate

So you're saying we're better than all but one of Spurs, Utd, Leicester, Everton, Wolves, West Ham, Southampton .... that's questionable. If you line up the starting elevens we don't get six guaranteed players against any of them ... we have way to many weak links.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Santi » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:42 pm

Yes quite comfortably better than Everton wolves West Ham and Southampton. Leicester are overrated imo and not that great without Vardy.

Spurs are obviously better than us and united about the same.

You lot just love to be dramatic about the player quality when things are going well. We win three games and suddenly every player is a goat, we lose 3 games they’re suddenly trash that wouldn’t get in the Brighton team. Quite pathetic really, the only problem most of these players have is their piss poor attitude and therefore their level of consistency which I already mentioned.

If you take our players on top form we are easily top 6 and I think we are a bit better than United squad wise.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:25 am

Santi wrote:Yes quite comfortably better than Everton wolves West Ham and Southampton. Leicester are overrated imo and not that great without Vardy.

Spurs are obviously better than us and united about the same.

You lot just love to be dramatic about the player quality when things are going well. We win three games and suddenly every player is a goat, we lose 3 games they’re suddenly trash that wouldn’t get in the Brighton team. Quite pathetic really, the only problem most of these players have is their piss poor attitude and therefore their level of consistency which I already mentioned.

If you take our players on top form we are easily top 6 and I think we are a bit better than United squad wise.


There is nothing over the last two years performance wise to back up your claims - and this year it's looking even worse.

To keep believing that player's who are consistently average will suddenly get better? Age or lack of ability suggest not.

So will any of these players likely be better next season?

Luiz - Next season 34 and well past his best
Sokratis - 33 and finished
Willian - 33 and on the way down
Ozil - 32 and three years out of date
Auba - 32 we all hope he's in the 5% of over 30's great strikers, but?
Laca - 30 looking a shadow of his former self
Soares - 30 WTF
Mustafi - 29 not getting any better

That's eight squad players who will almost certainly be worse not better if they are still here next season

Elneny - 29 he's reached his level
Xhaka - 28 keep hoping he will improve but?
Kolasniac - 28 he's reached his level
Bellerin - 26 we keep hoping he will get better but will he?

That's another four who we all know simply aren't getting any better, or do you think they will?

You might disagree with one or two of those but then I could add Mari, Chambers, Holding none of whom I have much hope for. Fair to say we have nearly half our squad who in all probability will be at best just as average, or more likely even weaker, players for us next season.

Of course that's the same for all clubs, it's a constant cycle of renewal, our issue is that unlike nine or ten clubs in the EPL we have half our squad either ageing or simply not good enough compared to their five or six.

We have let these problems build and build by extending contracts on players who then have no transfer value and by signing/loaning short term fixes creating long term problems.

You can argue that they are not all 'bad players' that they may just have a 'piss poor attitude' that Arteta is yet another 'failed manager' but what you can't deny is the harsh reality that far too many current players are just marking time on big contracts before heading for the retirement deals in China or the USA, they are never taking Arsenal back to the top, they just aren't good enough anymore.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:08 am

This squad finished second in the league. They weren’t much better than what we have now.

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby LMAO » Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:21 am

(semi-)athletic midfield with technical ability >>> nonathletic midfield with worse technical ability

That's the big difference.
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