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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:34 am

swipe right wrote:What future? We are talking about saving this season from disaster. You need every experienced hand on deck. You groom young players when you have squad stability. Not when you are fighting from falling into the drop zone. Madness.


But that's all we ever do every year "save the season from disaster" by using overpaid ageing players on their last legs, they when then leave or fail to perform we rinse and repeat the cycle Willian, Soares, Luiz just where did that get us?

We still end up with a disaster plus the added bonus of no future as well ... you want to just keep doing that over and over? Replace Ozil, Auba, Lacca, Luiz, Sokratis with a few more overpaid ageing top club rejects?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby thebigbangtheo » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:56 am

As an atheist, I for one would like to see Ozil reinstated to the team just to prove that the biblical story of Lazarus being risen from the dead ain't all that.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:39 am

EliteKiller wrote:
swipe right wrote:What future? We are talking about saving this season from disaster. You need every experienced hand on deck. You groom young players when you have squad stability. Not when you are fighting from falling into the drop zone. Madness.


But that's all we ever do every year "save the season from disaster" by using overpaid ageing players on their last legs, they when then leave or fail to perform we rinse and repeat the cycle Willian, Soares, Luiz just where did that get us?

We still end up with a disaster plus the added bonus of no future as well ... you want to just keep doing that over and over? Replace Ozil, Auba, Lacca, Luiz, Sokratis with a few more overpaid ageing top club rejects?

This is not like any other year. Do you not get the gravity of the situation we are in?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:07 am

swipe right wrote: This is not like any other year. Do you not get the gravity of the situation we are in?


We're five points from a CL spot .... seven from relegation .... it's not much different from the new normal.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:36 am

EK, the key points for me:

- Every season for the past 4 seasons we have had dufus managers making dufus decisions resulting in shit performances and painful to watch seasons.

- As a result of managerial incompetence I don't think most of the players -75% of them at least - are as bad as is made out or to blame.

- As Swipe Right stated, now is not the time to be dicking around with certain youngsters who frankly I don't expect to be playing for Arsenal within 2-3 years because they are sub-standard.

- We don't need Ozil to get loads of assists or to even create loads of chances, we need him to simply do what he does naturally and that is be the link between the midfield and the strikers.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:07 am

theHotHead wrote:EK, the key points for me:

- Every season for the past 4 seasons we have had dufus managers making dufus decisions resulting in shit performances and painful to watch seasons.

- As a result of managerial incompetence I don't think most of the players -75% of them at least - are as bad as is made out or to blame.

- As Swipe Right stated, now is not the time to be dicking around with certain youngsters who frankly I don't expect to be playing for Arsenal within 2-3 years because they are sub-standard.

- We don't need Ozil to get loads of assists or to even create loads of chances, we need him to simply do what he does naturally and that is be the link between the midfield and the strikers.


I get what you're saying just don't see the point ...

If you bring back Ozil then Arteta is finished, his credibility is zero, so who replaces him? If you bring back Ozil you have to drop another player out of the squad, so who goes? If you bring back Ozil chances are he will be no better than he was last season when his link up play created almost bugger all, rose-tinted glasses syndrome.

Taking two steps backwards can sometimes be the answer but in competitive sport it very rarely is ...

He should never have got 350k a week (nor should Auba) he should have been sold when his contract was down to 24 months, he should have been paid off last summer .... after all those mistakes bringing him back to finish 8th instead of 10th is it really worth all the aggravation that will inevitably follow?

FYI - The players are bad, this will be the fourth manager they've seen off in four years ... you can't polish a turd
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:21 am

If you believe Ozil has been banished by the club and it's out of Arteta's control then there is little point in hoping for Ozil's return.

Also, the digs Ozil and his agent have aimed at the club and Arteta makes it even more unlikely he'll play for us again. I can't see a way back for him even if this is Arteta's decision.

Ozil's had enough chances. I'm more concerned by the fact that Arteta isn't playing a creative midfielder at all. Give ESR, Saka or even Willian and Ceballos a chance there and see if that helps our ball retention higher up the pitch.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:54 am

He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:07 am

swipe right wrote:He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.


He may have but try to understand that you won't see Ozil play for Arsenal again because it's a complete breakdown between both camps.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:02 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
swipe right wrote:He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.


He may have but try to understand that you won't see Ozil play for Arsenal again because it's a complete breakdown between both camps.

We all know that. Unless Arteta is fired. If we go another month with these results Arteta is screwed. It’ll be a shame because there is a promising manager in him. He won’t get another shot at the big time like this one in a hurry. All to make a point to Ozil. Jeez what a fool.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:03 pm

swipe right wrote:He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.


shabby treatment would be to leave a player out of the squad and block a transfer elsewhere, which is what Utd did to Sergio Romero this summer.

Ozil on the other hand has been free to leave for a while. He's been out of the squad since March, so if he wanted to play football, his agent had months to figure something out.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:04 pm

aniym wrote:
swipe right wrote:He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.


shabby treatment would be to leave a player out of the squad and block a transfer elsewhere, which is what Utd did to Sergio Romero this summer.

Ozil on the other hand has been free to leave for a while. He's been out of the squad since March, so if he wanted to play football, his agent had months to figure something out.

That is also true.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:09 pm

EK, are the players really that bad ? I don't think so at all. Its all well and good saying its the 4th manager they have seen off but the personnel is not the same and when managers are frankly idiotic, how can the players be blamed ?!!

Arsene Wenger's main squad during his final season was (league):
Mkhi, Ramsey, Laca, Wilshere, Auba, Ozil, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Chambers, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Cech, Elneny.

Emery's main squad during his last season was (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Sokratis, Ceballos, Laca, Ozil, Torreira, Auba, AMN, Pepe, Mustafi, Chambers, Luiz, Guendouzi, Kolasinac, Xhaka, Saka

Arteta's main squad this season (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Tierney, Gabriel, Saka, Ceballos, Laca, Willian, Auba, Holding, Pepe, Luiz, Elneny, Xhaka

Only Bellerin, Laca, Auba, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny played under Wenger. Emery didn't give Elneny game time. The players in this list that I don't think should be called Arsenal players are Holding, Xhaka and Elneny. We all know they are sub standard, but subsequent managers have not replaced them !! I call that managerial stupidity. No way Vinai and co would veto their sales, had the then Head Coaches wanted to get rid of them. Bellerin in fact is lucky to still be called an Arsenal player, he too is sub standard.

Then, lets not forget Emery's attempt at playing Torreira - a recognised DM as a more attcking midfielder. Lets not forget the second half transformations and substitutions during the unbeaten run that saved his skin. I can't blame the players when the Head Coach is total knob.

I don't need to explain Wenger's shortcomings, needless to say I can't blame the players or find fault with them, how can you be expected to perform to your ability when the manager is totally clueless to the issues.

Arteta is an interesting one, because he has proven that the players ARE capable of playing better as a team, he got the very same players defending better whilst not affecting their offensive capability. Then, he decides to shift the sliding scale and go hella defensive, whilst not playing Ozil who at least can link play. The end result has been some of the most embarrassing and dreadful performances I have seen from Arsenal in the Premier League era. And now, because of his dreadful tinkering, lineups and systems, he has completely blunted our attack AND the defence has turned leaky again.

How can anyone blame the players ? I gave Arteta the credit for turning us around, NOT the players, so I am blaming Arteta for our demise. The players are capable of better, unless those who blame the players think that 14th in the league is their level ........ which is utter nonsense.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:46 pm

theHotHead wrote:EK, are the players really that bad ? I don't think so at all. Its all well and good saying its the 4th manager they have seen off but the personnel is not the same and when managers are frankly idiotic, how can the players be blamed ?!!

Arsene Wenger's main squad during his final season was (league):
Mkhi, Ramsey, Laca, Wilshere, Auba, Ozil, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Chambers, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Cech, Elneny.

Emery's main squad during his last season was (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Sokratis, Ceballos, Laca, Ozil, Torreira, Auba, AMN, Pepe, Mustafi, Chambers, Luiz, Guendouzi, Kolasinac, Xhaka, Saka

Arteta's main squad this season (league):
Leno, Bellerin, Tierney, Gabriel, Saka, Ceballos, Laca, Willian, Auba, Holding, Pepe, Luiz, Elneny, Xhaka

Only Bellerin, Laca, Auba, Holding, Xhaka, Elneny played under Wenger. Emery didn't give Elneny game time. The players in this list that I don't think should be called Arsenal players are Holding, Xhaka and Elneny. We all know they are sub standard, but subsequent managers have not replaced them !! I call that managerial stupidity. No way Vinai and co would veto their sales, had the then Head Coaches wanted to get rid of them. Bellerin in fact is lucky to still be called an Arsenal player, he too is sub standard.

Then, lets not forget Emery's attempt at playing Torreira - a recognised DM as a more attcking midfielder. Lets not forget the second half transformations and substitutions during the unbeaten run that saved his skin. I can't blame the players when the Head Coach is total knob.

I don't need to explain Wenger's shortcomings, needless to say I can't blame the players or find fault with them, how can you be expected to perform to your ability when the manager is totally clueless to the issues.

Arteta is an interesting one, because he has proven that the players ARE capable of playing better as a team, he got the very same players defending better whilst not affecting their offensive capability. Then, he decides to shift the sliding scale and go hella defensive, whilst not playing Ozil who at least can link play. The end result has been some of the most embarrassing and dreadful performances I have seen from Arsenal in the Premier League era. And now, because of his dreadful tinkering, lineups and systems, he has completely blunted our attack AND the defence has turned leaky again.

How can anyone blame the players ? I gave Arteta the credit for turning us around, NOT the players, so I am blaming Arteta for our demise. The players are capable of better, unless those who blame the players think that 14th in the league is their level ........ which is utter nonsense.


Again I get your point ... but you miss a key element ... Holding, Xhaka and Elneny are all on contracts no other club are interested in matching - even if a buyer could be found that player would have to be willing to accept a huge pay-cut to move. A manager can't replace a player if in reality he can't get rid of them, he can kick them out of the squad, but look how that's worked out, or her can pay them off and clearly we couldn't afford to do that.

We have this issue with Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Luiz, Willian, Soares and now we've added Auba ... we can't sell these players because their contracts are to expensive, it's almost certain that they will all run down and another seven players will need replacing with almost no transfer income.

This is the very problem that Wenger created with his crazy egalitarian contract policy, a policy which we simply can't seem to get away from.

Maybe this summer we will have the balls to deal with it - out will go Luiz, Ozil, Willian, Sokratis, Auba, Laca, Soares, Mustafi - the downside is that these exits will raise barely 100m and we will need well over 300m to fill those squad places .... so where does that come from?

In reality just like the last four years we will do a patch job - we will keep three or four players we all know aren't anywhere near Arsenal quality, players who should leave. Why? because even on their huge wages it's cheaper to keep them for another year than buy an Arsenal quality replacement, so Laca, Auba, Willian, Xhaka probably all stay - thus once again pushing a problem to another summer, and likely another manager.

That's before we've even looked at the upgrades so badly needed for Ceballos, Elneny, Bellerin ....

So yes the players are 'that bad' not just in terms of performance but also in terms of their asset value ... if we had an oligarch or a sheikh not a problem, they can bin a 72m keeper without a care ... but like most clubs we simply can't, we're now in a very deep hole and we're still digging ... at some point we are going to have to change to the Spurs/Liverpool/Leicester where you sell em' high not watch them retire, if we don't then top four might as well be on the moon.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:48 pm

swipe right wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
swipe right wrote:He treated Ozil shabbily. Leaving him out of the 25 man squad was a way to publicly humiliate him. Don’t think Ozil deserved that. You reap what you sow.


He may have but try to understand that you won't see Ozil play for Arsenal again because it's a complete breakdown between both camps.

We all know that. Unless Arteta is fired. If we go another month with these results Arteta is screwed. It’ll be a shame because there is a promising manager in him. He won’t get another shot at the big time like this one in a hurry. All to make a point to Ozil. Jeez what a fool.


You say that but even in your post above there is a slight hope that he plays for us again. I don't have much sympathy for Ozil in this situation because as aniym said, he should have left the club.

I don't have much sympathy for Arteta either because if he hasn't been fair with Ozil it just makes him look like an asshole. The team can see what's going on in the background. During Arteta's press conference after dropping Ozil from the squad he said something about 'being able to look players in the eye knowing he's comfortable with his decision'. That's a strong statement to make and if untrue and Ozil has been left unfairly....which of his players will respect that?

Outside of Ozil, we've seen how he's handled Guendouzi, Pepe, Saliba, Willian.....it will start to add up if he's not careful. I'm not enthused by his recent quote about needing several transfer windows to improve the squad either. I think Ozil would have been a challenge for any coach, it's how other players have been handled that concerns me more because Ozil only has a matter of months left with the club.
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