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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:49 pm
by Power n Glory
EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.



Why did you have to go back to 2018? Was it because he's done nothing in the two years since?


Exactly. 2018 in a game where we played crap for the first half and were a goal down but had a 20 minute spell where we scored 3 goals after the second half kick off. 30 minutes of great play from Ozil. Whilst playing with Torriera and Xhaka behind him to add. Also one of the rare games where he's assisted Aubameyang as well.

People point to this game as an example of what he can do but continue to say he hasn't got the right balance of players around him. So how the heck did he play like this with this group of players? Many have tried and failed to recreate the same conditions to get this sort of performance from Ozil consistently and not just the odd 30 minutes once in a blue moon.

I mean to this day you count on one hand the amount of assists he's provided Aubameyang. It just hasn't worked

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:53 pm
by Power n Glory
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:03 pm
by theHotHead
EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.



Why did you have to go back to 2018? Was it because he's done nothing in the two years since?

You don't like it because it shows Ozil has the ability to do all the things people like you claim he can't do. With the right set of players and system he can do it again, 2018 is not 2015. You talk about doing nothing since ... we had a fuckwit of a manager that managed to get sacked midway through a season, a manager that had a problem with Ozil, I couldn't care less about what he did in the last 2 seasons.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:04 pm
by themessiah
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:13 pm
by jayramfootball
^got to laugh at some of the armchair coaches.
:lol:

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:19 pm
by themessiah
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.




’ll give you 2, Leicester at home 18/19, name 3 more.

Interesting to see Ozil with only 1 assist for Auba... I would count that dummy leave vs Leicester an assist in the 3 - 1 W (Home 2018)

He needed to do that week in week out. It’s as if he has 0 motivation to play like that every week, there lies the problem. HH

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:28 pm
by Power n Glory
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:35 pm
by theHotHead
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.

The bollox you talk ! The modern game encompasses exactly what period ? Is 2015+ the "modern game" ? :rofll:

Lets say you mean the modern game is the Pep era of the game - and I am still taking the piss by suggesting this, from 2008. Ozil was doing just fine during this time. Lets move it further forward, 2010, Ozil continued to do just fine and so did David Silva who is an attack midfielder in a similar mould, drifting in between the forward and midfield lines, finding space, picking up the ball, Silva did fine. Lets fast forward to 2013, Ozil joined Arsenal, Isco joined Real Madrid. Both players were heavily involved in their team's campaigns - Isco up to last season making 23 appearances for Real Madrid.

So tell me, when exactly did this modern game begin, because Silva, Isco and Ozil have had plenty of game time

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:40 pm
by theHotHead
themessiah wrote:
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.




’ll give you 2, Leicester at home 18/19, name 3 more.

Interesting to see Ozil with only 1 assist for Auba... I would count that dummy leave vs Leicester an assist in the 3 - 1 W (Home 2018)

He needed to do that week in week out. It’s as if he has 0 motivation to play like that every week, there lies the problem. HH

I will repeat myself yet again, Ozil's talent is not in doubt, if you doubt his talent you are an idiot - not saying you are messiah. What IS in doubt is Ozil's ability to be consistent, you get no argument from me on that. But I put his inconsistency down to idiot managers who can't see the bleedin obvious. Not giving Ozil the tools he needs to perform is the single biggest reason for his inconsistency and I have nailed that flag of a reason to the walls floors and ceiling ! You don't go from the output he had to near zero for any other reason than the wrong environment.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:42 pm
by theHotHead
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:05 pm
by Power n Glory
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.


No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:08 pm
by Sims
petit and gilberto were both excellent technically and gilberto especially couldve played in a multitude of roles

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:20 pm
by Power n Glory
Sims wrote:petit and gilberto were both excellent technically and gilberto especially couldve played in a multitude of roles


Exactly and they weren't pampered, lazy bastards.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pm
by LMAO
I'm impressed Ozil still has defenders tbh

Sure, he's talented, but talent is useless when a player only makes an impact once in a blue moon these days. I'd rather have a consistent 6/10 player over one who'll give one performance that's 8 or 9/10 and 3 or 4/10 the rest of the time.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:46 pm
by theHotHead
Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.


No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....

Yes, a DM/Holding midfielder shileds the back line, in its purest form you are looking at Desailly for AC Milan, Makelele at Real Madrid, David Batty at Leeds. Michael Essien when deployed as a DM was very good, but he actually had a lot more to his game, he had the engine to get up and down and had a fearsome shot. When you have a DM that is strong, fast and can tackle you don't need 2 players to screen the back line one good DM is just fine. You wouldn't have a DM that panics or is not a decent passer of the ball at Arsenal, why would you ? The only way that should evetr happen is if your first choice DM is injured and your next best player who can comfortably play the holding role is unable to play. A club like Arsenal should never be in a position where they have a panicker in the position.

You do not need 2 players to screen the defence, some of you have been brainwashed into believing that we do, its because we have had so many shit playerts at the role for so long that you think it is the norm.