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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:10 am
by jayramfootball
Sims wrote:i would rather play willian in the hole than a 2020 ozil

and this is a guy whos never rated willian the entire time hes been in the prem

its not good enough anymore to be a liability defensively in the premier league for a top side. no player has this luxury at all, certainly not someone who's fell off like mesut

de bruyne was a chance creating number 10 but is now an all round midfield monster
havertz is able to play as an 8
liverpool have no passengers in their midfield
lo celso & ndombele put in good defensive shifts and have good defensive numbers
james rodriguez plays wide right so it lessens the need for him to do the dirty work, ozil is unable to start out wide for us
grealish starts out wide but is also an absolute grafter
maddison is a hybrid 8/10, similar to mount & grealish

ozil's kind simply doesnt exist anymore. the players like him have evolved their games to be more complete, he's remained stagnant his entire career. hes a pure playmaker, he has no goal threat and has no defensive contribution

if he had goal threat then there would be an argument to testing him out with more protection behind him, but he has 0


We lack creativity.
Ozil is a better option than what we have in the team. I hasten to add, not in all games, but certainly those games where we take the lions share of the possession and need to break down defences.

The players you mention don't play for us.

Ozil has never been a major goal scorer.

I have not heard a rational argument that supports a position of just letting him see out his last 9 months on holiday as opposed to using the player at times where he can be useful.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:32 am
by CaptGooner
Sims wrote:We all watched Ozil before lockdown

We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised

Arsenal fans are masochists.. we miss getting thrashed by the top clubs. We are ok to lose as long as we hit that ‘two key chances created’ stat.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:07 pm
by alexafc12
It's as clear as day.

Ozil being dropped has nothing to do with his performances in training.

It was an attempt to try and push him out of the club to avoid paying the loyalty bonus.

Kroenke and Co. showing again money can't buy class.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:19 pm
by Sims
jayramfootball wrote:
Sims wrote:i would rather play willian in the hole than a 2020 ozil

and this is a guy whos never rated willian the entire time hes been in the prem

its not good enough anymore to be a liability defensively in the premier league for a top side. no player has this luxury at all, certainly not someone who's fell off like mesut

de bruyne was a chance creating number 10 but is now an all round midfield monster
havertz is able to play as an 8
liverpool have no passengers in their midfield
lo celso & ndombele put in good defensive shifts and have good defensive numbers
james rodriguez plays wide right so it lessens the need for him to do the dirty work, ozil is unable to start out wide for us
grealish starts out wide but is also an absolute grafter
maddison is a hybrid 8/10, similar to mount & grealish

ozil's kind simply doesnt exist anymore. the players like him have evolved their games to be more complete, he's remained stagnant his entire career. hes a pure playmaker, he has no goal threat and has no defensive contribution

if he had goal threat then there would be an argument to testing him out with more protection behind him, but he has 0


We lack creativity.
Ozil is a better option than what we have in the team. I hasten to add, not in all games, but certainly those games where we take the lions share of the possession and need to break down defences.

The players you mention don't play for us.

Ozil has never been a major goal scorer.

I have not heard a rational argument that supports a position of just letting him see out his last 9 months on holiday as opposed to using the player at times where he can be useful.


regardless whether you rate him or dont, we save a "significant sum of money" in appearance related bonuses when he doesnt play

that is a rational argument

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:26 pm
by EliteKiller
alexafc12 wrote:It's as clear as day.

Ozil being dropped has nothing to do with his performances in training.

It was an attempt to try and push him out of the club to avoid paying the loyalty bonus.

Kroenke and Co. showing again money can't buy class.


Quite right if the media reports are true that he's just been paid an 8m 'loyalty bonus' and that playing him costs us huge appearance fee bonuses every game, then getting rid makes perfect sense. Who the feck signed a contract in 2015 that would pay out 25m (salary + bonus) to a 31 year old in 2020? Somebody must have got a massive brown envelope for that piece of stupidity .....

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:27 pm
by theHotHead
CaptGooner wrote:
Sims wrote:We all watched Ozil before lockdown

We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised

Arsenal fans are masochists.. we miss getting thrashed by the top clubs. We are ok to lose as long as we hit that ‘two key chances created’ stat.

Why does it have to be one or the other ? There are 10 games against the top clubs per season, are you suggesting we ignore the 28 other games in a season ? Didn't think so. I don't expect a response to my rhetorical question.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:30 pm
by theHotHead
Sims wrote:
regardless whether you rate him or dont, we save a "significant sum of money" in appearance related bonuses when he doesnt play

that is a rational argument

Rational to who ? Why do YOU care ? You are just a football fan, surely the success of the club and playing good and attractive football are what matters to you. All of a sudden every fan is a shareholder !

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:32 pm
by Dejan
Sims wrote:We all watched Ozil before lockdown

We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised
^^^^

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:34 pm
by Sims
theHotHead wrote:
Sims wrote:
regardless whether you rate him or dont, we save a "significant sum of money" in appearance related bonuses when he doesnt play

that is a rational argument

Rational to who ? Why do YOU care ? You are just a football fan, surely the success of the club and playing good and attractive football are what matters to you. All of a sudden every fan is a shareholder !


ozil doesnt fit that in my view. why would i want the club to spunk more money up the wall towards a player who offers nothing in my opinion on the pitch

same goes for any player you dont rate, you wouldnt want them to get minutes either if they were getting an extra £100k p/w for average to below average cameos

cant wait til friday when this registration closes, hes not in the squad and the conclusion of the mesut ozil chapter of arsenal is nigh and all but finished

then we can all move on from a player who last showed he was good 3 years ago

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:22 pm
by theHotHead
I'm not against shutting the Ozil chapter, but I don't see the point in spunking a load of cash on a player and not playing him, especially because creativity has been our nemesis this season, it seems totally bonkers.

Looking at purely a £ per goal/assist basis, Ozil has not been value for money in recent years, in fact he would need to post peak Ozil figures to come close. But what you are potentially advocating is a reduction in creativity to save money and that kinda doesn't sit well with me. Even if you take away whatever bonus he might get for appearances, we still have to pay his astronomical basic pay, surely getting something for our money is better than cutting off noses to spite our faces.

I feel more confident with Partey and Ceballos Ozil would be able to perform better than any creator we currently have, removing Partey I agree Willian in the role would be a better option.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:23 pm
by Power n Glory
CaptGooner wrote:
Sims wrote:We all watched Ozil before lockdown

We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised

Arsenal fans are masochists.. we miss getting thrashed by the top clubs. We are ok to lose as long as we hit that ‘two key chances created’ stat.


Pretty much. I have no desire to return to that tippy tappy sterile possession style that we watched after Cesc left. I thought most fans were prepared to see something different and us build from the back and get the foundation right again.

We're still a work in progress but when we do attack, we're pulling off some great fluent team goals. I'm sure it will all eventually come together but I always thought the goal was for us to be hard to bear first...attractive comes after.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:11 pm
by theHotHead
We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.


Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:17 pm
by EliteKiller
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.



Why did you have to go back to 2018? Was it because he's done nothing in the two years since?

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:33 pm
by Callum
Ozil vs Leicester in 2018 is fast becoming the Wilshere vs. Barcelona in 2011 type of game.

Re: Mesut Özil (10)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:43 pm
by themessiah
Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.