Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:28 pm

themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:35 pm

themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.

The bollox you talk ! The modern game encompasses exactly what period ? Is 2015+ the "modern game" ? :rofll:

Lets say you mean the modern game is the Pep era of the game - and I am still taking the piss by suggesting this, from 2008. Ozil was doing just fine during this time. Lets move it further forward, 2010, Ozil continued to do just fine and so did David Silva who is an attack midfielder in a similar mould, drifting in between the forward and midfield lines, finding space, picking up the ball, Silva did fine. Lets fast forward to 2013, Ozil joined Arsenal, Isco joined Real Madrid. Both players were heavily involved in their team's campaigns - Isco up to last season making 23 appearances for Real Madrid.

So tell me, when exactly did this modern game begin, because Silva, Isco and Ozil have had plenty of game time
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:40 pm

themessiah wrote:
theHotHead wrote:We are not talking about Wenger's tippy tappy nonsense, in a counter attack Ozil is perfectly placed to receive the ball, say on the halfway line, and drive forward and release a striker. Look at Arsenal's first goal in this game. In fact, look at all of Arsenal's goals and the part Ozil plays in them. Counter attack - check. Defence splitting pass through team sitting back - check. Pass pass pass - check.




’ll give you 2, Leicester at home 18/19, name 3 more.

Interesting to see Ozil with only 1 assist for Auba... I would count that dummy leave vs Leicester an assist in the 3 - 1 W (Home 2018)

He needed to do that week in week out. It’s as if he has 0 motivation to play like that every week, there lies the problem. HH

I will repeat myself yet again, Ozil's talent is not in doubt, if you doubt his talent you are an idiot - not saying you are messiah. What IS in doubt is Ozil's ability to be consistent, you get no argument from me on that. But I put his inconsistency down to idiot managers who can't see the bleedin obvious. Not giving Ozil the tools he needs to perform is the single biggest reason for his inconsistency and I have nailed that flag of a reason to the walls floors and ceiling ! You don't go from the output he had to near zero for any other reason than the wrong environment.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:42 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:05 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.


No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:08 pm

petit and gilberto were both excellent technically and gilberto especially couldve played in a multitude of roles
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:20 pm

Sims wrote:petit and gilberto were both excellent technically and gilberto especially couldve played in a multitude of roles


Exactly and they weren't pampered, lazy bastards.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby LMAO » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pm

I'm impressed Ozil still has defenders tbh

Sure, he's talented, but talent is useless when a player only makes an impact once in a blue moon these days. I'd rather have a consistent 6/10 player over one who'll give one performance that's 8 or 9/10 and 3 or 4/10 the rest of the time.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:46 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
themessiah wrote:Guys like özil and Isco just don’t have a role in the modern game

The really good 10's (like KDB) have adapted and learned to play deeper or on the wing. Meanwhile guys like Isco, Özil have stayed behind the curve and have basically no presence in the current game. Even guys like Havertz are learning the center striker role.

The creative burden is divided between the FBs, #8, False9. Now, creativity is more dependent on the system rather than individuals.


Been saying this about the 10 role for a long time. Also said as soon Wenger left, Ozil would be in trouble because whoever we bought in as manager probably wouldn't use a 10. If he could have shown he was capable, a deeper CM role could have worked. But he'd have to be prepared to really work hard off the ball and battle. Far too late for that now. His career at Arsenal is over.



The best specialist number 10's in the world are all evolving their game to play other positions. KDB, Silva, are all capable 8's now while Özil has not adapted his games
The modern 10 needs to be able to do it all - create and defend. No longer solely in charge of dictating play and making chances but needs to do the dirty work. Very few players have adapted to this role - KDB being one who has - Ozil has not.

They’re too much of a luxury for teams who press high. Pep would have punted Özil out after a season. Özil was a phenomenal player but he can’t compete now.

Dybala/Havertz who were 10s have changed the way the play so they can fit the CF role.


Pretty much. The game evolves and when roles change players tend to adapt or they move on to play for other managers and clubs that still try to play that way which can often mean a step down from the top clubs. The 10 role has changed the specialist DM role doesn't work anymore....players nowadays need to be able to play multiple roles today. That includes the keeper, wingbacks and CB's.

No they don't ! Mediocre players need to be able to play a variety of roles. Of course the specialist DM role works, its all about the system you employ. Are you trying to tell me Petit or Gilberto couldn't play in this Arsenal team and be effective ? Do me a lemon. Even Paul Davis from the 80s could play this football, screening the back line.


No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....

Yes, a DM/Holding midfielder shileds the back line, in its purest form you are looking at Desailly for AC Milan, Makelele at Real Madrid, David Batty at Leeds. Michael Essien when deployed as a DM was very good, but he actually had a lot more to his game, he had the engine to get up and down and had a fearsome shot. When you have a DM that is strong, fast and can tackle you don't need 2 players to screen the back line one good DM is just fine. You wouldn't have a DM that panics or is not a decent passer of the ball at Arsenal, why would you ? The only way that should evetr happen is if your first choice DM is injured and your next best player who can comfortably play the holding role is unable to play. A club like Arsenal should never be in a position where they have a panicker in the position.

You do not need 2 players to screen the defence, some of you have been brainwashed into believing that we do, its because we have had so many shit playerts at the role for so long that you think it is the norm.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:24 pm

When Partey comes into the side you'll see what I mean about about an evolved role. The DM role has moved away from Makalele types hence why Wenger is talking rubbish about technical ability and decision making. Also, Wenger is the one that said we need two DM's to get the best of Ozil. I don't agree with that and don't think we should be trying to accommodate Ozil at all at this point.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby elkanofan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:35 pm

Power n Glory wrote:No because Petit and Gilberto are two examples of players that evolved. Gilberto started his career as a CB and moved into a DM role. Petit was CM, moved into a DM role and ended up playing as CB after Arsenal.

So you're telling me a DM that just shields the midfield can work for us? So what happens when that DM isn't a great passer and panics with the ball at his feet? This is exactly the sort of player you'd scapegoat as to why we can't get the ball to Ozil. Playere like Elneny or Coquelin.

When I say a player needs to be able to play multiple roles I mean they have to be a good all round. Able to pass, defend, progress the ball.....




Technique has got worse over the years.

Now it's become all too generic. Your goalkeeper and center back have the technique of an average midfielder, problem is we do not see any magic specialists in technique and flair like Riquelme, Ronaldinho etc.. emerge at all.

Attacking Midfielders are all becoming like Aaron Ramsey, very good to solid technique, excellent engine, utilized well in the hole. Kai Havertz is more a goalscoring Ballack than Littebarski. Hes a big talent but I'm honest in that Ozil excited me a lot more at 20 than Havertz has.

As for attackers and strikers, all the best technique you see in the next gen are from these free role players who are all lesser version clones of Messi and CR7.

This has been the effect of making tackling so hard due to much stricter rules. The game flows much more now compared to before 2007. You can't do what Gary Neville did to Jose Reyes in THAT game that game 49 and out, because of this and over time a preference to high pressing with athlete has become the norm, added the lack of any creativity with the younger generation due to the over reliance of social media and instant gratification over patience and allowing our spiritual intuition to manifest.

I look at van Dijk who is seen as the worlds best defender as a sorry state for the game. He is a top player, strong, a leader, quick, agile for his size, excellent at player to player battles and possesses excellent technique. But his reading of the game has always been poor and still is now, that 7-2 nonsense would never happen with a guy like Adams vs a bang average side like Villa. This has all been put in to help agents wrap their prized assets in cotton wool as much as possible and to further sanitize the game of its tribal roots.

This change towards physicality hasn't benefited football at all. Its got worse as a spectacle and in overall quality. Wenger has basically said this with his recent comments on Ozil. While we all know this is no excuse to Ozil's shit the last 2-3 years for us and why he couldn't adapt his game, I do miss players like him at his best because right now I haven't seen any attacking mid youngster who excites me like Ozil did in his post Diego years at Werder Bremen.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby immsun » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:57 pm

Hes rubbing it now on twitter

Making club look.like a fool.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:02 pm

@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby ag6789 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm

I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby elkanofan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Power n Glory wrote:@Elk I think you're lamenting the lack of stars in the game and those with ridiculous tricks. I wouldn't say the game lacks technique overall. We're be seeing more hoof and run teams if that were the case.
Hoof and hope Stoke under Pulis are a good point to what ae just don't see in the game anymore. The eradication of this type of team and its players hasn't yielded a fountain of creativity to take football forward.

Instead a generation of almost clone like players with fewer talents to marvel at compared to what we saw even 10 years ago.

ag6789 wrote:I'm sure we'll get top notch skilled players again, the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Ronaldinho again. There's always a lull when one batch goes into the sunset and everyone thinks that's it. We're done.
Same happened w/Zico , Secretes, Falcao
Maradona etc, and before them, Rivelino, Tostao, Pele & Co.


The problem is its already been over 10-15 years since that generation and the current 20-26 year olds generation has completely failed to reproduce anything like that generation. The failure and downfall has already happened, we are experiencing it right now and its only going to get worse.
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