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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:42 am

Angelito wrote:We can already see Man City not being as effective as they were in those two incredible seasons. That's despite spending £1b on players.

Man City would need 4-5 world class signings to get back at those levels because Pep's system is more about physicality and diligence than people like to believe. But he needs specific players.

Wenger was bang on when he talked about neuroscience being the next breakthrough in football. Fitness regimen and physical training have been exhausted. Football people wanted peak human specimens and we've reached the absolute limit there.

It's about decision-making now. How quick can you decide and how is your body able to coordinate your thought-process and dexterity.

To draw a parallel, Ronaldo is the final word on physical fitness and peak physical performances. Messi, in contrast, is about the speed of his thought and his well coordinated mind and body. Both obviously are supreme athletes but that's where they vary.

A decade ago, we had an array of flair players with their hallmark intelligence: Iniesta, Pirlo, Xavi, Cesc, Ozil, Kaka, Alonso, Cazorla, Rosicky, Silva, Riquelme if you go back bit. To a lesser extent, we had the likes of Nasri, Arshavin, van der Vaart, Mata, etc.

Today, how many players of such type do we have? Pogba? KdB? Thiago?

Football has reverted back to being a game of physicality these days. It's about athleticism more now. About intensity, running.

There's a distinct dearth of flair players, technicians. Most top managers spend big on these players and mould them into runners. Like Pep did with KdB who has even played as a B2B midfielder for City.

You see products of systems these days. You don't see raw inventiveness. Players who have dared challenge Ronaldo and Messi at a technical level are the likes of Neymar and Dybala. Mbappe is about raw speed, top physical performance, and world class ability. But he's definitely not a technical beast. He's not flair and elegance.

If you think about it, Mikel, so far, is a lot closer to Mourinho and/or Klopp than he is to Wenger or Pep. Simeone, a prototype manager for today's athletes, has ruined numerous flair players.

People love to blame Wenger for switching to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1, but it was the need of the hour. How many top teams have used a 4-4-2 in the past decade? Atleti. ManU, at times under SAF. Even SAF reverted to a 4-5-1 in UCL games and big games in the Prem. Barca used 4-4-2 intermittently under Valverde, and they were destroyed in the UCL.

4-3-3 is the ideal system today. We "suffered" because we didn't have the resources of a Chelsea, ManU, or a City.

On Ozil, he was sublime under Wenger. He dropped off immediately after Wenger left and following Germany's World Cup fiasco in 2018. We hired Emery who was always a manager about shape and system. Simply not a world class one like Simeone, Conte, or even Klopp as his strategy is system-dependent.

SAF's strength lied in his robust wingers and clinical CFs. Wenger's strength was in his technical players. Make no mistake, Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg, Bergkamp, et al. were technicians foremost.

Unlike SAF, or Pep, or Zidane, Wenger didn't have an abundance of resources. Unlike Klopp, Wenger didn't enjoy a free run to express himself during the latter part of his career due to the stadium move.

That Real side that won 3x UCLs in a row had world class players in every position. Barca had the golden midfield. Those Milan sides under Ancelotti looked more like a World XI than a club side. SAF had prime Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, and a formidable defense and GK when he won the UCL. Still, that 3-1 loss against Barca is probably the single most dominant display by a winning side in UCL final history. ManU were lucky, they only conceded 3 goals.

It's all about the players you have, the system, and the resources at your disposal.

Today, the game is system-oriented. It's about physicality, intensity, and about clubs that can afford intelligent players.

The players we have signed since Mikel has been here collude to that fact: Gabriel, Thomas, and Willian. All physical players. Thomas has a bit of flair in him, but he's no Santi Cazorla.

This deserves a bloody round of applause :clap:

The one thing I don't agree with was your comment that we needed to move to a 4-3-3. I don't agree with this at all and I do not agree that it is the best formation at the moment. There is no best formation in football. You can look at systems and forecast that one may topple another due to overloading or whatever else, but in reality its down to the players you have and the way you implement it.

I think Wenger went to 4-3-3 because we literally just lost to Barca in the CL final and that prompted him to begin the Barca Lite transformation, with the small technical players and passing the ball to death. You already conceded SAF played 4-4-2, he only played 4-5-1 in the big games, we could've done exactly the same. In fact, we did just that in our route to the CL final and never played it again under Wenger.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Nuggets » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:59 am

Phil71 wrote:
Callum wrote:Anyone else get the feeling that Ozil is just going to retire in 2021 when his contract expires?


He retired last year.

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Angelito » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:00 am

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Dejan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:25 am

Embarrassing.

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:26 am

themessiah wrote:HH is though.

HH was saying People saying he isn't getting play time because of the whole China thing forget he played 10+ games after it

I just pointed out Oezil stats from last season, is that a stat for 350k/week and he started 90% of those, in Baku he was subbed off by 60mins same as his last world cup appearance, HH needs to accept that he's finished bro.

I haven't been Ozil's biggest fan since Baku

Auba made up for it in the Fa cup final. He is forgiven :) :biggrin: .

Mikel wants a TEAM of players who all work hard for each other. Wenger must let Arteta run things his way please after the mess he left the club in.

When Emery benched him at the 70th min against Chelsea in the 2nd game of his 1st season, all the media and fans had greeted Unai Emery for having dared to get out Ozil that Wenger dared not do, this player just believed himself

He had it easy during Wenger days, him being a Wenger boy
Arteta is very pragmatic. If a player behaves and does what is told to do on and off the pitch professionally, he'll back you up with a clean slate

I think the issue is also Meust ego and openness to accept new ways that he might not care about and if that's the case, no one is bigger than the club. You've got to do what you manager asks of you.

Since he was dropped by Arteta and we changed formation, we have had a decent defensive record and a good record against top teams

We have also won silverware. Özil isn't needed.

Y'all that are saying I have an Özil agenda. I defended the guy on here until the Baku disasterclass

I can list a number of players that wanted to stay but their club didn't. Why is it different with Özil?

For example, that it doesn't matter how much you make, if you don't perform, don't here to the rules then you are out. Even if you are Mesüt Özil. I'm a fan of the club not Özil FC thing , if he doesn't do what Arteta wants from him, he wont play. Simple as that.

HH can jump one point to another, because he keep bringing up new points, that are just not true. But the fact is, Oezil game performances have dropped since signing the new contract. Maybe he can't do the things Artete wants, hence he can't play.

Once again, Arteta is the manager and he decides who plays and who doesn't. And if Özil doesn't do anything apart from slowing the tempo, playing 3 key passes a game and not take shots he has no place. I trust Arteta more, than Özil's faded memory. If Özil wanted to go...

He could have left, but for reasons he did not leave. He could have taken a paycut if he wanted to play that much somewhere else.

Mate you are talking rubbish. My stance on Ozil has not changed, my arguments for and against Ozil have not changed.

1) Give Ozil the platform he needs and he will perform. He can't perform if he has to chase back, he can't perform high has to drop deep to get the ball.

2) Whilst we are winning without Ozil I will not overly criticise Arteta, he has made us a much better team. But we are suffering creatively, Ozil can and should be used more than he is. Even this incarnation of Ozil is better than any creative player we have.

3) I have maintained that leading up to the Covid break Ozil was one of our better performers, some disagree with that (the usual Ozil haters). I performed some analysis of Ozil's performances (the Aniym coffin saga) nd showed that for 65% of games leading up to the Covid break Ozil scored 6 out of 10 or more, in various match ratings. Conversely he scored 5 out of 10 or less for 35% of the games.

4) We have been shit creatively this season but have our most creative player not even in match day squads.

5) We are paying £350k per week for no benefit whatsoever which makes no sense at all.

6) You claim we have been better without Ozil against the top teams, Ozil played 16 games under Arteta last season, 4 of which against the so-called Top 6 sides. With Ozil Played 4, 1 win, 1 draw, 2 loss, 5 goals for, 7 goals against. Without Ozil, we played 3 games, 1 win, 2 losses, 3 goals for, 6 against. Lets analyse this season. Well ... we have only played one Top 6 team, Liverpool, and we lost 3-1. So adding to the games from last season its without Ozil Played 4, won 1, lost 3, 4 goals for and 9 goals against.

Let point 6 sink in ........ Your point that we have been good against Top6 teams since Ozil has been dropped is proven to be total bollox friend.

7) You claim we have had a better defensive record overall, lets look at that. Under Arteta last season Ozil played 17 games, since the resumption of the league we played 10 games without Ozil. With Ozil, P17, W5, D8, L4, F25, A22, GD+3. Without Ozil P10, W5, D1, L4, F16, A12 GD+4. You would have to be making the biggest exaggeration to claim we have been better defensively during that period, especially when you consider Ozil's stats were from Arteta's first games as Arsenal manager versus having had a post Covid pre season period and Martinez on top form ! so that argument is dead.

In this new season we have played 4, won 3, lost 1, for 8, against 5, goal diff +3. Now, again, consider, we had a pre season so yet more time Arteta has had to drill the team. There is no proof whatsoever that, with Ozil in the team the numbers would be any worse than they are.

Let point 7 sink in, we were meant to be better defensively but the goal difference tells a different story. What stands out, in the periods that the team were afforded pre season periods with Arteta we have drawn far fewer games. Thats about all that has improved. In any case this season's sample size is too small to compare to last season's set of data.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:09 am

Also another reason why he’s not playing as well as not being good

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Angelito » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:44 am

So, all the hoopla about those non-negotiables was poor 'ol Sunshine Sachs.

Nice.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:18 am

Angelito wrote:So, all the hoopla about those non-negotiables was poor 'ol Sunshine Sachs.

Nice.


Why is it so hard for you to accept that Mesut Ozil is now shit

Genuine question
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:01 am

He is not shit, he is not the player he once was and considering he was one of the best CAMs in world football, thats no surprise.

Can he do a job for this current Arsenmal team ? Yes. Is he better than any attacking midfielder currently at the club ? Yes.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand Sims?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:07 am

theHotHead wrote:He is not shit, he is not the player he once was and considering he was one of the best CAMs in world football, thats no surprise.

Can he do a job for this current Arsenal team ? Yes. Is he better than any attacking midfielder currently at the club ? Yes.



Because it's just plain wrong .... over the last 12 months he's not even been in the Arsenal top ten for goals and assists .... it's like saying Southampton were the best team in the EPL last season even though ten teams finished above them ...

You simply have ZERO supporting argument that Ozil is the best at anything ... name one thing he was the best at last season that actually in results terms means anything to our club.

Not only can he no longer fulfil a role, very shortly he won't even be registered to take part ... and this thread can finally be closed.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:09 am

Sims wrote:
Angelito wrote:So, all the hoopla about those non-negotiables was poor 'ol Sunshine Sachs.

Nice.


Why is it so hard for you to accept that Mesut Ozil is now shit

Genuine question


That's like asking someone to accept the moon is made of cheese and then being 'genuinely' surprised when they don't agree with you.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:22 am

We all watched Ozil before lockdown

We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:31 am

Sims wrote:We all watched Ozil before lockdown

Yes.
We all watched him contribute effectively nothing and there was no point of him being on the pitch

No we 'all' did not see that

We all watched us progress as a team with a coherent system and are now pushing forward to revert from this 3atb with the arrival of Partey

Yep, no one is arguing that we've become far more organised, but some of see that we're creating less chances and see the lack of creativity as an important issue - or at least will be against the better teams.

I don’t see how this clamour of a past it footballer is still a thing. Having one or two good passes a game doesn’t warrant a whole system being jeopardised

Ozil does a lot more than 'one or two good passes a game'.

None of what you said underpins your 'Ozil is sh*t' comment.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:33 am

EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:He is not shit, he is not the player he once was and considering he was one of the best CAMs in world football, thats no surprise.

Can he do a job for this current Arsenal team ? Yes. Is he better than any attacking midfielder currently at the club ? Yes.



Because it's just plain wrong .... over the last 12 months he's not even been in the Arsenal top ten for goals and assists .... it's like saying Southampton were the best team in the EPL last season even though ten teams finished above them ...

You simply have ZERO supporting argument that Ozil is the best at anything ... name one thing he was the best at last season that actually in results terms means anything to our club.

Not only can he no longer fulfil a role, very shortly he won't even be registered to take part ... and this thread can finally be closed.

EK, look at the last 12 months !! Look how Ozil has been treated by the club ! Look how he was treated by Emery ! Has Ozil been given what he needs or has he been asked to track back, defend and play alongside a bunch of muppets in midfield ?!!

So, given you know where I am going with this, in the past 12-24 months Ozil has been poor, but, there are valid reasons for this. We have seen flashes of his brilliance, with Ozil it is not about ability or technique, it is about consistency. Given he is still technically excellent how do we make him more consistent ? The obvious answer is don't ask him to defend and allow him to get on the ball. If he is given that as a remit, if he does not deliver, then has himself to blame and I for one will stop defending him. Having Partey and Ceballos alongside him, Ozil has no excuses for not performing.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Sims » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:37 am

i would rather play willian in the hole than a 2020 ozil

and this is a guy whos never rated willian the entire time hes been in the prem

its not good enough anymore to be a liability defensively in the premier league for a top side. no player has this luxury at all, certainly not someone who's fell off like mesut

de bruyne was a chance creating number 10 but is now an all round midfield monster
havertz is able to play as an 8
liverpool have no passengers in their midfield
lo celso & ndombele put in good defensive shifts and have good defensive numbers
james rodriguez plays wide right so it lessens the need for him to do the dirty work, ozil is unable to start out wide for us
grealish starts out wide but is also an absolute grafter
maddison is a hybrid 8/10, similar to mount & grealish

ozil's kind simply doesnt exist anymore. the players like him have evolved their games to be more complete, he's remained stagnant his entire career. hes a pure playmaker, he has no goal threat and has no defensive contribution

if he had goal threat then there would be an argument to testing him out with more protection behind him, but he has 0
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