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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:04 pm

EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
So even his mentor concedes he's a lazy f**k "He wasn't exactly the one with the greatest discipline on the pitch. And playing the game without the ball wasn’t exactly his forte" and that his time has passed “Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making. It's more about physical characteristics and intensity, about explosiveness"

Yet still the Ozil fan boys will demand we rip up our successful current strategy just to find a place for their hero - you can't fix stupid

Only to your idiocy EK.

It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt through match stats that Ozil is consistently in the top 25% of Arsenal players in distance covered.

Let me guess, its the wrong kind of stat for you.

Like YOU said, you can't fix stupid!


They're not my words that's what Arsene Wenger said in his latest diatribe .... did you miss the quotation marks?

But we at least do agree that Arsene 2020 is now stupid ... finally something we are agreed on ...

I saw the quotes, they only mean lazy if you don't like the player, the comments themselves do not mean lazy. Get a grip.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:05 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
So even his mentor concedes he's a lazy f**k "He wasn't exactly the one with the greatest discipline on the pitch. And playing the game without the ball wasn’t exactly his forte" and that his time has passed “Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making. It's more about physical characteristics and intensity, about explosiveness"

Yet still the Ozil fan boys will demand we rip up our successful current strategy just to find a place for their hero - you can't fix stupid

Only to your idiocy EK.

It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt through match stats that Ozil is consistently in the top 25% of Arsenal players in distance covered.

Let me guess, its the wrong kind of stat for you.

Like YOU said, you can't fix stupid!


They're not my words that's what Arsene Wenger said in his latest diatribe .... did you miss the quotation marks?

But we at least do agree that Arsene 2020 is now stupid ... finally something we are agreed on ...


:rolleyes: Second time I've seen that mistake from dude.

Wenger's right about the athletic and physical side being important but he's wrong about about decision making and technique being less important. Top teams need all three from their players. The evolution of football. It's all over the pitch now and even includes goalkeepers.

He seen it happen with strikers where you needed to have the three core components to be the best. Little number 9 types and poachers like Owen, Inzaghi, Van Nistelrooy...all fizzled out because it wasn't enough to just score goals. Wenger should know this hence why he'd opt play small strikers out wide and he didn't switch formation to a two man striker system to combine the physical and technical.

Wenger's suggestion of putting two defensive players next to Ozil may get the best out of Ozil but it doesn't mean we get the best from the team. Also, the two players behind Ozil will still need to good technically as well as physically otherwise you get a situation where they can't get him the ball as seen in the past.

With Partey coming into the side, it's possible there could have been a way back for Ozil as some have suggested but he's only just burnt that bridge with the Gunnersaurus stunt and embarrassing the club.

Agree with this.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby DiamondGooner » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:52 pm

There is no way back for Ozil because Arteta doesn't want it.

Grow up and live with it ffs, the man's only got a year left and has been ousted from the Europa squad, do you know what that means?

The only time your gonna see Ozil in action is on Fortnight.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Tony Adams » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:29 pm

“Players have lost their technical quality over the past 10 years,” Wenger argued. “Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making. It's more about physical characteristics and intensity, about explosiveness.”


This hasn't changed Arsene, its the reason we got over-run when you started filling our midfield with short, technical types!
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Santi » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:59 pm

It has, there’s a distinct lack of flair players these days in favour of runners. Wenger may have gone too far in trying to emulate Barcelona but he isn’t wrong in his comments.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby themessiah » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:02 pm

@HH When was the last time Özil pulled off an 8/10 in 2 games straight? Assist? We have tried all of this with Özil and it led to no where.

HH You are Clamouring for Özil, we would have won against Liverpool, Man City and beat Chelsea in the Fa cup final? Or was your favorite not in action when we lost scandalously in Baku? Where did his nifty and guile passes take us to that night?

This narrative of Arsenal freezing out Özil because he spoke out against China is false.

it's been happening before Özil came out against China's Uighur thing.

The most likely reason was probably the fact that he only notched 1 goal + 1 assist in 9 games playing most of it. And before that he only scored one goal in 7 games.

Knowing Arteta's policy when it comes to team selection, he's given Özil a second chance and probably thought he didn't deliver so finds it better just to leave him out the team.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Santi » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:26 pm

You’re making your own fantasy in order to argue against it and prove yourself right.

1) he’s not clamouring for Ozil, he’s saying he can be useful in the squad.
2) he’s not specifically said that he should’ve played against Pool, City etc and others in this thread have explicitly said those are no longer games for Mesut because we aren’t good enough to play on the front foot.
3) he was never left out by Wenger. It was only when Emery came in he has some inexplicable issue with Ozil yet resorted to using him everytime he needed a result.
4) Aubameyang and Lacazette also featured in Baku...what the f**k did they do? Apologies if I missed it because I was blind drunk by half time but pretty sure they did nothing.
5) China isn’t the main reason that’s been mentioned from what I saw, the difference came during lockdown.

Agree the stats have been poor and his performances have been average at best over the last 2 years. Again, nobody is really pretending otherwise, however, would say the circumstances haven’t lent themselves to getting the best out of him with being in and out of the team and clearly not very happy. He had a chance to do more in that 10 game spell under Arteta, and he was disappointing overall, but that wasn’t enough to cause the sudden exclusion that happened post lockdown and has us where we are now.

It’s just a ridiculous situation that the club are exacerbating and what you call ‘clamouring’ is more looking for a clear f***ing answer as to why our most expensive player, part paid for by us poor fans, is being completely left out. It’s not a problem, we are winning and he is leaving in the summer at the latest..nobody will give a f**k once he leaves and nobody wants him to extend..but, while he’s here, either give us a clear statement or try and use the guy in some games where we can afford more luxury.

Sure I’ll just get labelled some Ozil lover (despite changing my GW name about 2 years ago when I’d had enough of him) and be told to grow up and live with it, trust arteta n all that but hey, bring it on f***ers. Not just gonna read this tripe slagging him non stop, he has his flaws, he has dropped off and we are winning without him. I get it, I also get we can give youngsters minutes who will help towards our future but then I think the board should’ve sacked him on the spot as soon as they decided he’s no longer of any use.

This club is lucky it’s winning at the moment because the feel good factor on the pitch is covering up all their off-field bullshit antics.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby alexafc12 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:48 pm

I thought Wenger summed it up perfectly.

"Players have lost their technical quality over the past ten years.

"Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:09 pm

Wenger's talking rubbish. You won't survive at this level without technique or decision making. The quality has spread all over the pitch so now it's more difficult for individuals to outclass a whole team. The keeper now has to be able to with his feet, defenders need to he able play out from the back and stay calm under pressure, a low quality midfielder that can't trap a ball or pass will get exposed in our set up playing out from the back.

The games just more organised and structured. We have top level coaches sprinkled throughout the league so it's not as easy to break teams down. Also, with Ronaldo and Messi approaching retirement years we're at a stage where we we're waiting on new stars to dominate.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Tony Adams » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:17 pm

alexafc12 wrote:I thought Wenger summed it up perfectly.

"Players have lost their technical quality over the past ten years.

"Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making.
It was always the case. From Makelele and Ramires alongside Lampard to Fernandinho and Fernando alongside Yaya Toure to Kante and Drinkwater. Other teams may have had technical players but the physical athletes in the middle of the park were always key to title wins!

That is why signing Partey was more important than signing Aouar imo.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Angelito » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:19 pm

We can already see Man City not being as effective as they were in those two incredible seasons. That's despite spending £1b on players.

Man City would need 4-5 world class signings to get back at those levels because Pep's system is more about physicality and diligence than people like to believe. But he needs specific players.

Wenger was bang on when he talked about neuroscience being the next breakthrough in football. Fitness regimen and physical training have been exhausted. Football people wanted peak human specimens and we've reached the absolute limit there.

It's about decision-making now. How quick can you decide and how is your body able to coordinate your thought-process and dexterity.

To draw a parallel, Ronaldo is the final word on physical fitness and peak physical performances. Messi, in contrast, is about the speed of his thought and his well coordinated mind and body. Both obviously are supreme athletes but that's where they vary.

A decade ago, we had an array of flair players with their hallmark intelligence: Iniesta, Pirlo, Xavi, Cesc, Ozil, Kaka, Alonso, Cazorla, Rosicky, Silva, Riquelme if you go back bit. To a lesser extent, we had the likes of Nasri, Arshavin, van der Vaart, Mata, etc.

Today, how many players of such type do we have? Pogba? KdB? Thiago?

Football has reverted back to being a game of physicality these days. It's about athleticism more now. About intensity, running.

There's a distinct dearth of flair players, technicians. Most top managers spend big on these players and mould them into runners. Like Pep did with KdB who has even played as a B2B midfielder for City.

You see products of systems these days. You don't see raw inventiveness. Players who have dared challenge Ronaldo and Messi at a technical level are the likes of Neymar and Dybala. Mbappe is about raw speed, top physical performance, and world class ability. But he's definitely not a technical beast. He's not flair and elegance.

If you think about it, Mikel, so far, is a lot closer to Mourinho and/or Klopp than he is to Wenger or Pep. Simeone, a prototype manager for today's athletes, has ruined numerous flair players.

People love to blame Wenger for switching to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1, but it was the need of the hour. How many top teams have used a 4-4-2 in the past decade? Atleti. ManU, at times under SAF. Even SAF reverted to a 4-5-1 in UCL games and big games in the Prem. Barca used 4-4-2 intermittently under Valverde, and they were destroyed in the UCL.

4-3-3 is the ideal system today. We "suffered" because we didn't have the resources of a Chelsea, ManU, or a City.

On Ozil, he was sublime under Wenger. He dropped off immediately after Wenger left and following Germany's World Cup fiasco in 2018. We hired Emery who was always a manager about shape and system. Simply not a world class one like Simeone, Conte, or even Klopp as his strategy is system-dependent.

SAF's strength lied in his robust wingers and clinical CFs. Wenger's strength was in his technical players. Make no mistake, Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg, Bergkamp, et al. were technicians foremost.

Unlike SAF, or Pep, or Zidane, Wenger didn't have an abundance of resources. Unlike Klopp, Wenger didn't enjoy a free run to express himself during the latter part of his career due to the stadium move.

That Real side that won 3x UCLs in a row had world class players in every position. Barca had the golden midfield. Those Milan sides under Ancelotti looked more like a World XI than a club side. SAF had prime Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, and a formidable defense and GK when he won the UCL. Still, that 3-1 loss against Barca is probably the single most dominant display by a winning side in UCL final history. ManU were lucky, they only conceded 3 goals.

It's all about the players you have, the system, and the resources at your disposal.

Today, the game is system-oriented. It's about physicality, intensity, and about clubs that can afford intelligent players.

The players we have signed since Mikel has been here collude to that fact: Gabriel, Thomas, and Willian. All physical players. Thomas has a bit of flair in him, but he's no Santi Cazorla.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby themessiah » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:24 pm

alexafc12 wrote:I thought Wenger summed it up perfectly.

"Players have lost their technical quality over the past ten years.

"Athleticism has become more important than technique and decision making.



Wenger would never shit talk his players in public. Mourinho got to work with prime Özil who was a different beast. Emery, Ljunberg and Arteta had to deal with a declining Özil

He’s 33 now ffs, so clearly a shadow of his former self.

Granted he was one of the best midfielders in his day (2010 - 2017), but he very clearly isn’t the same player now.

So when Wenger at the end of his tenure bench him, it was maybe because Özil was not fit, when Emery benched him, he was the biggest as*hole on Earth, when Freddy benched him, he didn't know what he was doing, and now when Arteta bench him it’s because “it’s political, it is never Özil fault” lol
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby alexafc12 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:43 pm

You only need to look at Liverpool to understand Wenger's point.

Their entire game is based on athleticism and physicality. The ability to constantly press all over the pitch and transition from defence to attack quickly. Their midfield is less about technical quality in possession and passing, and more about covering lots of ground, winning back possession and recycling it to the flanks.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby themessiah » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:46 pm

Santi wrote:You’re making your own fantasy in order to argue against it and prove yourself right.

1) he’s not clamouring for Ozil, he’s saying he can be useful in the squad.
2) he’s not specifically said that he should’ve played against Pool, City etc and others in this thread have explicitly said those are no longer games for Mesut because we aren’t good enough to play on the front foot.
3) he was never left out by Wenger. It was only when Emery came in he has some inexplicable issue with Ozil yet resorted to using him everytime he needed a result.
4) Aubameyang and Lacazette also featured in Baku...what the f**k did they do? Apologies if I missed it because I was blind drunk by half time but pretty sure they did nothing.
5) China isn’t the main reason that’s been mentioned from what I saw, the difference came during lockdown.

Agree the stats have been poor and his performances have been average at best over the last 2 years. Again, nobody is really pretending otherwise, however, would say the circumstances haven’t lent themselves to getting the best out of him with being in and out of the team and clearly not very happy. He had a chance to do more in that 10 game spell under Arteta, and he was disappointing overall, but that wasn’t enough to cause the sudden exclusion that happened post lockdown and has us where we are now.

It’s just a ridiculous situation that the club are exacerbating and what you call ‘clamouring’ is more looking for a clear f***ing answer as to why our most expensive player, part paid for by us poor fans, is being completely left out. It’s not a problem, we are winning and he is leaving in the summer at the latest..nobody will give a f**k once he leaves and nobody wants him to extend..but, while he’s here, either give us a clear statement or try and use the guy in some games where we can afford more luxury.

Sure I’ll just get labelled some Ozil lover (despite changing my GW name about 2 years ago when I’d had enough of him) and be told to grow up and live with it, trust arteta n all that but hey, bring it on f***ers. Not just gonna read this tripe slagging him non stop, he has his flaws, he has dropped off and we are winning without him. I get it, I also get we can give youngsters minutes who will help towards our future but then I think the board should’ve sacked him on the spot as soon as they decided he’s no longer of any use.

This club is lucky it’s winning at the moment because the feel good factor on the pitch is covering up all their off-field bullshit antics.



HH is though.

HH was saying People saying he isn't getting play time because of the whole China thing forget he played 10+ games after it

I just pointed out Oezil stats from last season, is that a stat for 350k/week and he started 90% of those, in Baku he was subbed off by 60mins same as his last world cup appearance, HH needs to accept that he's finished bro.

I haven't been Ozil's biggest fan since Baku

Auba made up for it in the Fa cup final. He is forgiven :) :biggrin: .

Mikel wants a TEAM of players who all work hard for each other. Wenger must let Arteta run things his way please after the mess he left the club in.

When Emery benched him at the 70th min against Chelsea in the 2nd game of his 1st season, all the media and fans had greeted Unai Emery for having dared to get out Ozil that Wenger dared not do, this player just believed himself

He had it easy during Wenger days, him being a Wenger boy
Arteta is very pragmatic. If a player behaves and does what is told to do on and off the pitch professionally, he'll back you up with a clean slate

I think the issue is also Meust ego and openness to accept new ways that he might not care about and if that's the case, no one is bigger than the club. You've got to do what you manager asks of you.

Since he was dropped by Arteta and we changed formation, we have had a decent defensive record and a good record against top teams

We have also won silverware. Özil isn't needed.

Y'all that are saying I have an Özil agenda. I defended the guy on here until the Baku disasterclass

I can list a number of players that wanted to stay but their club didn't. Why is it different with Özil?

For example, that it doesn't matter how much you make, if you don't perform, don't here to the rules then you are out. Even if you are Mesüt Özil. I'm a fan of the club not Özil FC thing , if he doesn't do what Arteta wants from him, he wont play. Simple as that.

HH can jump one point to another, because he keep bringing up new points, that are just not true. But the fact is, Oezil game performances have dropped since signing the new contract. Maybe he can't do the things Artete wants, hence he can't play.

Once again, Arteta is the manager and he decides who plays and who doesn't. And if Özil doesn't do anything apart from slowing the tempo, playing 3 key passes a game and not take shots he has no place. I trust Arteta more, than Özil's faded memory. If Özil wanted to go...

He could have left, but for reasons he did not leave. He could have taken a paycut if he wanted to play that much somewhere else.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Santi » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:00 pm

I’m just gonna pick up on the ‘doing what arteta wants’ bit, as the rest is fair enough and I largely agree. Although I wasn’t suggesting you have an agenda (a few people definitely do) but I do think it’s a very easy bandwagon to jump on without being fully fair to the player as well.

So as for doing what Arteta wants - do you really think he isn’t? This is the point for me because he seemed to be doing enough of what Arteta wanted pre-lockdown, whilst he wasn’t perfect or even close to it, he was playing about 10 games in a row. So, whilst it’s common to slate his running and defensive abilities, he must’ve been doing enough right to play all those games no? Or do you think Arteta just played him because they were mates before?

It’s only post lockdown that he’s been exiled fully, even worse than under emery. This is why I think it’s down to whatever happened over the wage issue, we’ve seen Arteta take the hard line with Guendouzi when he didn’t play ball and whilst they haven’t confirmed it, it seems the same with Ozil since lockdown.

Now if that’s the reason then it’s fair enough, consistency in his approach and showing no player is above the team or the club. This appears to be the most likely explanation and why it annoys me when people say it’s for footballing reasons (he’s certainly dropped off) because there was no footballing issue 9 months ago and he wasn’t any better then. I think the club just need to make a statement if they want to end the circus because until the reason is put out in the open, there will always be questions. I’d like to put it behind us as much as anyone because it’s just shit for everyone involved, club, Ozil and fans.
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