Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:14 am

Yep, I agree that our poor defending has nothing to do specifically with a single player. Also agree that Pepe is poor defensively, although Saka I disagree with - he puts a shift in and gets himself goal side whenever we don’t have the ball. In fairness though Pepe has been left out quite a bit by Arteta as well.

Anyway, what EK is saying is spot on. You can’t put Ozil in the midfield 2 in the current system because they have a lot of defensive responsibility. And playing him wide in a front three isn’t going to be where he is most effective. So you either change system to get him in (which I don’t think any club should do), or he adapts his game to fit the current system.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:23 am

Goonerz wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Angelito wrote:

It was the wrong type of chance he created Angelito, the chance should have been 30 degrees more to the player's left for it to be counted as a proper chance created.

I am still waiting for you to help us understand this chances created stat.
Can you please refer me to only 3 games where some of these 50 odd chances created occurred?
Can you choose just 2 or 3 games and put time stamps.

Example:
Arsenal vs Leicester
Ozil created 6 chances.
The first chances created is at the 21 minute mark.
Second chances created is at the 38th minute mark.
4th chance created is at the 54th minute mark.
The 6th chance created is at the 84th minute mark.
Etc.
Then we can all have a look and understand what you mean.
I have asked this same question for since last week but you just seem to ignore it on purpose.
You love to keep throwing around this chances created stat but when asked to validate it you quiet.

Still waiting.

Firstly, lets clarify who Orbinho is, according to Twitter: Arsenal facts. Head of Opta Data Editorial since the end of the 20th Century. Creator of @OptaJoe
Trying to convince people to use data better.


Next, lets look at what he/she says about Chances Created: Chances created is a player statistic, which shows how many shots a particular player has set up

I do not have time to watch reruns of 90+ min games and index the chances created just to satisfy your ignorance. why would the guy be biased toward Ozil ?! He/she is a statto, providing false stats kills credibility and ultimately your career as a statto.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:34 am

hs6bx wrote:Yep, I agree that our poor defending has nothing to do specifically with a single player. Also agree that Pepe is poor defensively, although Saka I disagree with - he puts a shift in and gets himself goal side whenever we don’t have the ball. In fairness though Pepe has been left out quite a bit by Arteta as well.

Anyway, what EK is saying is spot on. You can’t put Ozil in the midfield 2 in the current system because they have a lot of defensive responsibility. And playing him wide in a front three isn’t going to be where he is most effective. So you either change system to get him in (which I don’t think any club should do), or he adapts his game to fit the current system.

I totally agree, there is no place for Ozil in a middle 2. However this is where formations, systems and tactics should come into play, not this one size fits all that managers seems addicted to.

Nothing stopping us playing 2 in the middle to screen defence, against the better teams, absolutely. That 2 can have a majority defensive role, but against mid level or even low level teams one of the 2 can have more license to get forward. I would play Ozil behind the attacking line, like he was employed for Real Madrid, on the break, give him the ball, runners/movement ahead of him, he will pick the right pass and release the attack. It doesn't work if you insist on slow slow slow build up play. It seems to me that a 5-2-1-3 is the formation best suited to us, because we can play 3 CBs, have wing backs support the attack or defence - so thats your width, 2 in the middle screening and Ozil behind the front 3.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Zenith » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:07 am

theHotHead wrote:
hs6bx wrote:Yep, I agree that our poor defending has nothing to do specifically with a single player. Also agree that Pepe is poor defensively, although Saka I disagree with - he puts a shift in and gets himself goal side whenever we don’t have the ball. In fairness though Pepe has been left out quite a bit by Arteta as well.

Anyway, what EK is saying is spot on. You can’t put Ozil in the midfield 2 in the current system because they have a lot of defensive responsibility. And playing him wide in a front three isn’t going to be where he is most effective. So you either change system to get him in (which I don’t think any club should do), or he adapts his game to fit the current system.

I totally agree, there is no place for Ozil in a middle 2. However this is where formations, systems and tactics should come into play, not this one size fits all that managers seems addicted to.

Nothing stopping us playing 2 in the middle to screen defence, against the better teams, absolutely. That 2 can have a majority defensive role, but against mid level or even low level teams one of the 2 can have more license to get forward. I would play Ozil behind the attacking line, like he was employed for Real Madrid, on the break, give him the ball, runners/movement ahead of him, he will pick the right pass and release the attack. It doesn't work if you insist on slow slow slow build up play. It seems to me that a 5-2-1-3 is the formation best suited to us, because we can play 3 CBs, have wing backs support the attack or defence - so thats your width, 2 in the middle screening and Ozil behind the front 3.

Agreed. I mean, who wouldn't be suited to playing with 12 players? :frogwink:
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:10 am

If we can get away with that formation then I’m getting straight down the bookies to bet on us breaking the top 4 next year! :arse flag.gif:

I do get what you mean though. We could definitely chop and change formation a bit to suit opposition. Having said that, it’s equally important that we get some key foundations laid, and reintroduce accountability for players (which has been absent for at least 10 years). Arteta keeps alluding to these non-negotiables. Ultimately I think it’s Ozil’s inability to tick the right boxes for what arteta wants at a foundational level.

I don’t actually believe that Arteta will shut the door completely on him or Guendouzi. I think he’ll happily have them in the team if they can show what he needs to see. The difficulty with Ozil is that it’s more difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. Buuuut, in the same breath older players have adapted their game successfully in the past - Gerrard, Giggs, Milner, Cazorla. The later had never played in a deeper role before the last couple of years at arsenal, and he did that role very well and looked great with and without the ball.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:40 am

Zenith wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
hs6bx wrote:Yep, I agree that our poor defending has nothing to do specifically with a single player. Also agree that Pepe is poor defensively, although Saka I disagree with - he puts a shift in and gets himself goal side whenever we don’t have the ball. In fairness though Pepe has been left out quite a bit by Arteta as well.

Anyway, what EK is saying is spot on. You can’t put Ozil in the midfield 2 in the current system because they have a lot of defensive responsibility. And playing him wide in a front three isn’t going to be where he is most effective. So you either change system to get him in (which I don’t think any club should do), or he adapts his game to fit the current system.

I totally agree, there is no place for Ozil in a middle 2. However this is where formations, systems and tactics should come into play, not this one size fits all that managers seems addicted to.

Nothing stopping us playing 2 in the middle to screen defence, against the better teams, absolutely. That 2 can have a majority defensive role, but against mid level or even low level teams one of the 2 can have more license to get forward. I would play Ozil behind the attacking line, like he was employed for Real Madrid, on the break, give him the ball, runners/movement ahead of him, he will pick the right pass and release the attack. It doesn't work if you insist on slow slow slow build up play. It seems to me that a 5-2-1-3 is the formation best suited to us, because we can play 3 CBs, have wing backs support the attack or defence - so thats your width, 2 in the middle screening and Ozil behind the front 3.

Agreed. I mean, who wouldn't be suited to playing with 12 players? :frogwink:

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:13 pm

hs6bx wrote:If we can get away with that formation then I’m getting straight down the bookies to bet on us breaking the top 4 next year! :arse flag.gif:

I do get what you mean though. We could definitely chop and change formation a bit to suit opposition. Having said that, it’s equally important that we get some key foundations laid, and reintroduce accountability for players (which has been absent for at least 10 years). Arteta keeps alluding to these non-negotiables. Ultimately I think it’s Ozil’s inability to tick the right boxes for what arteta wants at a foundational level.

I don’t actually believe that Arteta will shut the door completely on him or Guendouzi. I think he’ll happily have them in the team if they can show what he needs to see. The difficulty with Ozil is that it’s more difficult to teach an old dog new tricks. Buuuut, in the same breath older players have adapted their game successfully in the past - Gerrard, Giggs, Milner, Cazorla. The later had never played in a deeper role before the last couple of years at arsenal, and he did that role very well and looked great with and without the ball.

I don't think the non-negotiables are the issue. We all saw how much extra legwork he has been putting in, chasing back, he was one of the best 3 performers under Arteta. Something else must be going on.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:38 pm

It’s hard to say because we don’t know what all of his non-negotiables are. Personally I haven’t observed anything different from Ozil defensively or in terms of work rate that’s been noticeable to my eyes. Whereas if I look at Aubameyang I’d say I’ve noticed him improving his defensive efforts (though not in every game, but it won’t change overnight).

As for being a top 3 performer under arteta I’d also disagree with this. Although perhaps there is something else going on behind the curtain... and maybe we will find out when he leaves... maybe we won’t.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:14 pm

Ozil agent confirmed again today that Ozil is staying until his contract expires, after which he is 90% certain to leave.
Looks like we have a 350k a week hole in our finances next year with Ozil basically not playing.
This one is on Arteta. He created the stand off situation.
If Arteta does well next year, great. If we don't and we're not more creative it's all on him.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:10 pm

Here is a question for everyone if that is true - if there are clubs who want to sign Ozil and would pay his wages and offer him Regular first team football (assuming arsenal would even subsidise some of the wages), why wouldn’t he leave?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:51 pm

hs6bx wrote:Here is a question for everyone if that is true - if there are clubs who want to sign Ozil and would pay his wages and offer him Regular first team football (assuming arsenal would even subsidise some of the wages), why wouldn’t he leave?


Because no one is going to pay 350k a week.
I don't think there is a single fan I know that thinks he is worth that.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:10 pm

But if there were teams willing to pay his wages (or we subsidise them), then why wouldn’t he leave in order to get the same dollar (maybe even more depending on tax legislation), and play the game he supposedly loves.

I don’t think Arsenal are going to demand someone pay £350k per week if someone wants wants to loan a player that isn’t playing?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:30 pm

hs6bx wrote:But if there were teams willing to pay his wages (or we subsidise them), then why wouldn’t he leave in order to get the same dollar (maybe even more depending on tax legislation), and play the game he supposedly loves.

I don’t think Arsenal are going to demand someone pay £350k per week if someone wants wants to loan a player that isn’t playing?


No one is going to pay those wages to a 31 yr old and who knows what arsenal are willing to subsidise.
Besides, Ozil (as well as anyone else) would only go where they want to go. So not only does it have to be a team willing to pay the wages and / or Arsenal subsidise those wages, it has to be a team and country that is desirable.

I've seen the argument a few times - that no one wants Ozil. That's nonsense. It's about the money, not the player.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:00 am

If he stays it will be his choice - he will earn 18m next season, that's his contract we gave it to him good luck to the man - he can sit on the bench or at home as an Arsenal player and get that money .... alternatively he can go play somewhere else on loan with the loan club paying Arsenal a loan fee, apparently Fenerbahce offered 8m, he still gets his 18m wages from Arsenal we just get 8m back ....

If Arteta has no plans to use him why wouldn't we take the deal? if however Ozil wants another year in London before moving to the US/China when his contract expires, why would he take the deal?

It's all down to what he wants, face it nobody is offering 350k a week 18m for a one year loan, it's just a question of how many, if any, millions we can save on a player we no longer want, but that's IF and only IF he will accept a loan ... according to his agent he simply isn't interested, so basically we're screwed.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:29 am

I don't see anything in Arteta's actions that he wants anything to do with Ozil or Guendouzi.

If that's going to be the case then we really need to get Ozil loaned out for at least 50% of his wages, that's Lacazettes wages saved even if we pay half of Ozil's wage.
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