Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:14 pm

hs6bx wrote:This whole debate provides all the evidence required to show that player statistics are unnecessarily obsessed over. It doesn’t provide an indication of how good a player is. Stats attempt (for the most part) to objectify the unobjectifiable (new word for the dictionary there).

Using a pair of eyes and your enthusiasm for the game saves all the hassle of trying to prove each other right or wrong. Then you can just provide an opinion - which is all it ever is even with the stats. Save time and don’t bother looking at them. Then accept that not everyone agrees with you. Done


Stats can be misused, just as your own eyes can be affected by inherent bias.
The best approach is to use both. That's what clubs do when assessing their players.
Stats can never wholly describe a players contribution, but neither can just watching a game.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Goonerz » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:27 pm

themessiah wrote:
elkanofan wrote:
gooney wrote:omg why are we still discussing this bug eyed greedy c***. Just close his thread. He is not part of the team and he has cult like following.
I just agreed with Gooney.

That alone should end this entire forum let alone this thread.

Season is over, he's not playing in the final. I'm done speaking about Ozil. Just hope he is kicked out ASAP, just sack him and pay like 30% of his salary or whatever minimum possible, clear him off our books and rebuild this team now for next season.




:1970_two_smileys_drinking_beer_together.gif: :cloud9:

:clap:

Özil worshippers are worse than people who were Wenger in since 2006

Looking back at my times of defending Wenger makes me cringe now. :redface:
I held on to my delusional AKB (Arsene Knows Best) mantra until 2014.
Lol
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:30 pm

My disappointment right now is wholly focused on Erdogan.

Istanbul Basekcehir just won the domestic league and will be in CL next year. I don't know if their financials are as bad as Fener, but CL football and having the ear of the president should certainly loosen some purse strings.

And yet, no offer. Not even a hint of an offer.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Goonerz » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:39 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Angelito wrote:

It was the wrong type of chance he created Angelito, the chance should have been 30 degrees more to the player's left for it to be counted as a proper chance created.

I am still waiting for you to help us understand this chances created stat.
Can you please refer me to only 3 games where some of these 50 odd chances created occurred?
Can you choose just 2 or 3 games and put time stamps.

Example:
Arsenal vs Leicester
Ozil created 6 chances.
The first chances created is at the 21 minute mark.
Second chances created is at the 38th minute mark.
4th chance created is at the 54th minute mark.
The 6th chance created is at the 84th minute mark.
Etc.
Then we can all have a look and understand what you mean.
I have asked this same question for since last week but you just seem to ignore it on purpose.
You love to keep throwing around this chances created stat but when asked to validate it you quiet.

Still waiting.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Goonerz » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:49 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Goonerz wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Goonerz wrote:
Chris Sharma wrote:
Goonerz wrote:
Ach wrote:So you agree he was a flop with Germany and in Madrid like goonerz seems to think?

Same with Germany. What I think you are conflating is that I keeps saying he flopped at the recent world cup. The one Germany won in 2014 Ozil was a peripheral figure. Was shoved outwide and not played in his so calle preferd No10 position. Midfield was a very key position and the manager did not trust Ozil in it.
My opinion of course.
That’s all.
:biggrin:


I only comment about Germany national team. Saying Özil was a peripheral figure in 2014 is utter bollocks. After Neuer and Lahm he was the third player to be on the sheet, maybe par with Müller. He played wide, because it gave the best balance to the team. If Reus would not have been injured, Reus would have fought for a spot with Kroos, not Özil. Özil was always going to be in the team. I listened to most of Löws interviews and there is no doubt about that. He maybe didnt play his best in 2014 but was still a very important player for the team. Nobody could have replaced him. He was still a good player in Euro 2016 and played all the games.

He has had an average Arsenal career and it is going to leave a lot of questions. I agree to most here that his motivation is out of the window. Arteta seems to be a very fair guy so I dont doubt at all that Özil is just not doing enough in training. I am all for Arteta on this one.


I am a bit confused.
:biggrin:


Yes, you are.

Ozil 2014 World Cup:

66 touches per game on average.
88% pass accuarcy.
17 chances created - 2.4 per game, second only to Messi in the entire tournament.
1 assist

Successful final third passes - 171 - the most in the entire tournament.
2nd in the entire tournament for WINNING POSSESSION in the final third of the pitch

5th in the tournament for winning corners.

You've already demonstrated you are clueless, but this time you went above above and beyond.

Hahaha.
You are yet to answer my question. I will not engage with you on this Germany issue. I will engage with @Chris Sherma” because he brought it up.

But you my friend “When was the first and last time have you criticised your cult hero (Ozil) ever since he joined in 2013? I am not letting tou run away from it. Deflectinf all over the place.
Have you even ever had any constructive criticism of your cult hero ever?

If not then you are bordering on obsession. A recipe for cultism. That is not a healthy thing. Even we criticise those that are dear to us (family, friends). But you not being able to find a time where yoi have criticised Ozil on here is worrying. That is MAGA / Trump supporter cultist territory.

I am still waiting.

And for your fellow Ozil fangirl “Hothead”. He is also hiding. I asked him to validate his typical “Ozil Chances Created” catchphrase.

I am still waiting for him to show these supposed created chances. But like you he is hiding.
Lol


i am not surprised you won;t engage in the 'Germany issue'.
You made a dumb ass comment so you are running away from it.

I asked a question from the get go. But instead of addressing it you keep running all over the place jumping clinging on anything in order to deflect.
For you again. Can you remind me a time you have criticised Ozil since he moved here in 2013?
Even if it’s constructive criticism.
I will not let you rum away from it.

If you can’t find a single instance in the last 6 years where you have ever criticised Ozil them that is worrying. That is cultish mentality.

Won’t let you off the hook.

Still waiting.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Phil71 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:54 pm

Just get rid of him.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Goonerz » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:10 pm

Angelito wrote:

Lol.
Still blaming Giroud for Özil’s own flaws.
Can’t one look at that same stat and conclude that GIROUD did not score because the likes of Ozil were terrible at feeding him?

Can’t someone also make a similar poster but this time showing that in that same period himself Ozil had;

OZIL
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
0 Assist
Etc?

Or maybe that tilt does not fit your desired conclusion? Lol

Again, Giroud was blamed for Özil’s flaws and was sold. What has Ozil done ever since? He has had Auba and Laca but he just seems to have gotten worse. May be it was Giroud that made ozil look better than he actually is that half season.
He has the likes of Ronaldo, Benzema and Higuin at Madrid. How come he never hit 19 assists with those amazing strikers? May be they were crap and could not convert all Ozil 500 or so he Chances he Created in his whole Madrid career. Isn’t?

He has had Auba and Laca but his stats have kept getting worse while Auba seems to find ways to score at least 20 goals each season. Now what is the excuse for Ozil??

Funny stuff. Isn’t it?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:24 pm

theHotHead wrote:
hs6bx wrote:This whole debate provides all the evidence required to show that player statistics are unnecessarily obsessed over. It doesn’t provide an indication of how good a player is. Stats attempt (for the most part) to objectify the unobjectifiable (new word for the dictionary there).

Using a pair of eyes and your enthusiasm for the game saves all the hassle of trying to prove each other right or wrong. Then you can just provide an opinion - which is all it ever is even with the stats. Save time and don’t bother looking at them. Then accept that not everyone agrees with you. Done

But it doesn't thats why we are having this particular debate. Someone used their eyes and said Ozil did f**k all in a list of games, the ratings prove otherwise, and its not just Ozil. Claims are made about lots of players but when you look at the stats they do not agree with the opinion given. We are all semi-intelligent beings, it shouldn't be hard to form an opinion and use stats to corroborate it. Its only when the facts/stats don't back someone's point of view that stats are called into question.


Clearly stats can be interpreted in different ways. So whether you use your eyes or stats, or both, it’s ultimately your own filter, biases and beliefs that will create the foundation of an argument for most people. People see what they want to see, and filter out what they don’t; and the pick the stats that back up an argument and ignore the ones that don’t. That is what is going on here if we all admit it. The argument is only an argument because someone is challenging our belief / ego.

Unless you just objectively use stats... in which case your opinion of players will change like the wind, and even then as I’ve said before there are too many things in a game of football that can’t be measured. The stats phenomenon really is the Americanisation of sport - the moneyball type approach. Of course clubs use them and have their own teams who measure this stuff, but I highly doubt Arteta will be picking his starting 11 based on players stats from the game before. He knows when his players are doing what is asked of them. I think actually for most clubs it’s the video analysis post match that is scrutinised a lot more than stats. The video actually provides the context that the stats miss. Then I can see if those key passes recorded were actually key passes or if the player miss-kicked it and got lucky for example. You get me?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:46 pm

hs6bx wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
hs6bx wrote:This whole debate provides all the evidence required to show that player statistics are unnecessarily obsessed over. It doesn’t provide an indication of how good a player is. Stats attempt (for the most part) to objectify the unobjectifiable (new word for the dictionary there).

Using a pair of eyes and your enthusiasm for the game saves all the hassle of trying to prove each other right or wrong. Then you can just provide an opinion - which is all it ever is even with the stats. Save time and don’t bother looking at them. Then accept that not everyone agrees with you. Done

But it doesn't thats why we are having this particular debate. Someone used their eyes and said Ozil did f**k all in a list of games, the ratings prove otherwise, and its not just Ozil. Claims are made about lots of players but when you look at the stats they do not agree with the opinion given. We are all semi-intelligent beings, it shouldn't be hard to form an opinion and use stats to corroborate it. Its only when the facts/stats don't back someone's point of view that stats are called into question.


Clearly stats can be interpreted in different ways. So whether you use your eyes or stats, or both, it’s ultimately your own filter, biases and beliefs that will create the foundation of an argument for most people. People see what they want to see, and filter out what they don’t; and the pick the stats that back up an argument and ignore the ones that don’t. That is what is going on here if we all admit it. The argument is only an argument because someone is challenging our belief / ego.

Unless you just objectively use stats... in which case your opinion of players will change like the wind, and even then as I’ve said before there are too many things in a game of football that can’t be measured. The stats phenomenon really is the Americanisation of sport - the moneyball type approach. Of course clubs use them and have their own teams who measure this stuff, but I highly doubt Arteta will be picking his starting 11 based on players stats from the game before. He knows when his players are doing what is asked of them. I think actually for most clubs it’s the video analysis post match that is scrutinised a lot more than stats. The video actually provides the context that the stats miss. Then I can see if those key passes recorded were actually key passes or if the player miss-kicked it and got lucky for example. You get me?


I think it is more simple than that.
Th epoint being refuted is that Ozil has done nothing in any game he played.
This is palpably false whether you use stats or your eyes.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby hs6bx » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:05 pm

I can only speak for myself here Jayram, but if you asked me whether Ozil has shown enough in the last couple of years, when provided the opportunity, to warrant starting him i would say no. Regardless of what he once was, I can only base my opinion on recent history. For me I prefer to base what I see on my interpretation. I don’t like getting involved in stat based conversations because it always drags people into Trying to objectifying things. It’s not possible. So I won’t even bother going down the path of how many x, y and z he has.

Who knows why arteta doesn’t want to play him, but my guess would be that he thinks his weaknesses outweigh his strengths - ie he might create a couple of good chances, but we then have to sacrifice a man defensively, which for a mid table side you can’t afford to do. Arguably even for a top side depending on how they like to play the game. And I also believe that it’s silly and not sustainable to try building a side around one player. I do believe Arteta will have given him the opportunity to change his game / adapt to the new style. We might never know though...
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:28 pm

hs6bx wrote:I can only speak for myself here Jayram, but if you asked me whether Ozil has shown enough in the last couple of years, when provided the opportunity, to warrant starting him i would say no. Regardless of what he once was, I can only base my opinion on recent history. For me I prefer to base what I see on my interpretation. I don’t like getting involved in stat based conversations because it always drags people into Trying to objectifying things. It’s not possible. So I won’t even bother going down the path of how many x, y and z he has.

Who knows why arteta doesn’t want to play him, but my guess would be that he thinks his weaknesses outweigh his strengths - ie he might create a couple of good chances, but we then have to sacrifice a man defensively, which for a mid table side you can’t afford to do. Arguably even for a top side depending on how they like to play the game. And I also believe that it’s silly and not sustainable to try building a side around one player. I do believe Arteta will have given him the opportunity to change his game / adapt to the new style. We might never know though...


There is not an argument about whether Ozil is not playing to his best (perhaps permanently) over the last 2 years. Who knows why.
The only reason there is a back and forth about him is because some people insist on denegrating his entire career - for what reason I can not fathom - and pretending that he's been sh*t over the last 2 years. He hasn't. He has just been off his usual game by some distance, but he has still put in some decent performances over that period.

I think most of the Ozil hatred comes from initial ridiculous expectations when we signed him, plus the amount of money he is being paid with his latest contract. That contract was a big error by the club, but it's not Ozil's issue. I don't think any 29 year old footballer would turn down 350k a week. The club had got itself into the usual stupid position of having stars coming to the end of contracts and were set to lose Ozil and Alexis. We panicked.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:45 pm

Statistics are a tool to be used as evidence of a particular viewpoint - as long as the criteria remains the same they will indicate a subject's progress over a period of time - for example world records show that something has got better/faster/smarter does that mean the latest holder of a record is the best of all time? That's when it becomes subjective ...

Take cars, is the Hennessey Venom F5 the 'best' car in the world? it's the fastest road car after all ... the answer is purely subjective.

Same goes for Ozil do his statistics make him "the best ever midfielder" well since 2000 he's ranked 4th in assists, so no statistically not the best, but still subjectively some people might say so ... he's above Cesc so is he better? purely a matter of opinion ...

What you can learn from statistics, even if you don't like the methodology, is changes and trends - Ozil's annual ranking have gone as follows:

7.31
7.44
7.37
7.39
7.27
7.57
7.66
7.30
7.25
6.78
6.71


The last six seasons were with us, agree or not with the messenger, show a clear trend down ... time waits for no man.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:46 pm

hs6bx wrote:I can only speak for myself here Jayram, but if you asked me whether Ozil has shown enough in the last couple of years, when provided the opportunity, to warrant starting him i would say no. Regardless of what he once was, I can only base my opinion on recent history. For me I prefer to base what I see on my interpretation. I don’t like getting involved in stat based conversations because it always drags people into Trying to objectifying things. It’s not possible. So I won’t even bother going down the path of how many x, y and z he has.

Who knows why arteta doesn’t want to play him, but my guess would be that he thinks his weaknesses outweigh his strengths - ie he might create a couple of good chances, but we then have to sacrifice a man defensively, which for a mid table side you can’t afford to do. Arguably even for a top side depending on how they like to play the game. And I also believe that it’s silly and not sustainable to try building a side around one player. I do believe Arteta will have given him the opportunity to change his game / adapt to the new style. We might never know though...

Ozil has not played anywhere near to the level he should be, given his level is a notch or 2 lower than it was in his peak, we still see glimpses of it. I don't believe there is a single reason behind it, I think it is a combination of things.

Even out of form though Ozil is still creatively far better in the middle than any other player we have.people decry his lack of defending, so what!! How much defending does Saka do when pushed further forward or Pepe?? They are rubbish at defending in any case so its better that they stay forward. I don't agree that we lose anything defensively if Ozil plays, who takes his place when he doesn't play?

Our shit defending has nothing to do with Ozil, there is no discernible difference in our defending if he plays or not.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:35 am

theHotHead wrote:Ozil has not played anywhere near to the level he should be, given his level is a notch or 2 lower than it was in his peak, we still see glimpses of it. I don't believe there is a single reason behind it, I think it is a combination of things.

Even out of form though Ozil is still creatively far better in the middle than any other player we have.people decry his lack of defending, so what!! How much defending does Saka do when pushed further forward or Pepe?? They are rubbish at defending in any case so its better that they stay forward. I don't agree that we lose anything defensively if Ozil plays, who takes his place when he doesn't play?

Our shit defending has nothing to do with Ozil, there is no discernible difference in our defending if he plays or not.


It's a balancing act - In attack if you replace an attacking player with current Ozil you potentially lose a few goals but you don't lose anything in defence ...

Auba - Goals 22 Assists 3 - Contribution 25
Lacca - Goals 10 Assists 4 - Contribution 15
Pepe - Goals 5 Assists 6 - Contribution 11

Ozil - Goals 1 Assists 2 - Contribution 3

(If we had 2015 Ozil then - Goals 6 Assists 19 - Contribution 25 makes good sense, but will he hit those heights in 2021?)

The same goes with defending, if you replace Xhaka, Torreira, Ceballos then you potentially gain a few goals, but you lose a player when defending in the midfield ...

Arteta has clearly set out to stop conceding goals that only leaves room for a front three - and against big sides a front two - whilst Ozil may be the most creative player we have in the Arteta game plan that means either sacrificing a goal scorer or a defensive midfielder, clearly right or wrong Arteta isn't prepared to do that which means Ozil on 18m a year remains a little used squad player ... far better to pay another club 10m in wages to take him off our hands, saves 8m and leaves a space in the squad for someone Arteta might actually use.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:07 am

EliteKiller wrote:Statistics are a tool to be used as evidence of a particular viewpoint - as long as the criteria remains the same they will indicate a subject's progress over a period of time - for example world records show that something has got better/faster/smarter does that mean the latest holder of a record is the best of all time? That's when it becomes subjective ...

Take cars, is the Hennessey Venom F5 the 'best' car in the world? it's the fastest road car after all ... the answer is purely subjective.

Same goes for Ozil do his statistics make him "the best ever midfielder" well since 2000 he's ranked 4th in assists, so no statistically not the best, but still subjectively some people might say so ... he's above Cesc so is he better? purely a matter of opinion ...

What you can learn from statistics, even if you don't like the methodology, is changes and trends - Ozil's annual ranking have gone as follows:

7.31
7.44
7.37
7.39
7.27
7.57
7.66
7.30
7.25
6.78
6.71


The last six seasons were with us, agree or not with the messenger, show a clear trend down ... time waits for no man.


As has been pointed out, whoscored asjusts player ratings depending on how the team does. It's not actually a pure player rating. So the trend you are showing above mirrors Arsenal's decline. It provides no evidence of your viewpoint.
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