Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:12 pm

NJ_Gunner wrote:So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.


What would you rather have, a 40% boost to our transfer budget, or another year of Ozil pocketing £18m for a few G+A vs crap teams and completely invisible against good teams?

We are not a team that can afford to give a bench player the salary of 3 men.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:44 pm

I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:48 pm

theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.



I agree with that.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:15 pm

theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.


There is a stat for chance creation and stat for big chance creations. Ozil was nowhere near the top for this season on big chances. What counts as a big chance would be the one Willock missed where Lacazette played him clean through on goal with a tidy one two..it's not just any pass that results in a shot.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ce_created

Ryan Fraser topped the chart with 28 but finished with 14 assists and ended up 2nd. That to me suggests he'd have done way better with more clinical strikers. Ozil is nowhere to be seen on this chart.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Tony_Adams » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:09 am

NJ_Gunner wrote:So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.
I think we go from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3. Our defence has been the problem so add a DM to sit in front and protect them:

From

-------CF
LWF-Ozil-RWF
----CM-CM

to

-------CF
RWF-----LWF
----CM--CM
------DM
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby gooney » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:52 am

If ozil asked to terminate his contract.....arsenal would jump on that. Says everything you need to know
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:05 am

Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.


There is a stat for chance creation and stat for big chance creations. Ozil was nowhere near the top for this season on big chances. What counts as a big chance would be the one Willock missed where Lacazette played him clean through on goal with a tidy one two..it's not just any pass that results in a shot.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ce_created

Ryan Fraser topped the chart with 28 but finished with 14 assists and ended up 2nd. That to me suggests he'd have done way better with more clinical strikers. Ozil is nowhere to be seen on this chart.

Yes, a stat that fits your agenda you will champion. Cool. But don't try to knock my equally relevant stat.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:08 am

gooney wrote:If ozil asked to terminate his contract.....arsenal would jump on that. Says everything you need to know

Yes, It tells us Ozil should not be on £350k per week, thats all. No player in the world should be on that sort of money. Messi and Ronaldo should be and that's yer lot.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:21 pm

Power n Glory wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.


Not sure we can know from recorded stats the position of the tackles, but it's true that Ozil ranks low for attacking midfielders on tackles per game... it's at 0.6. It's not much of a difference, though across all attacking midfielders. Silva is at 1.0, Erikssen at 1.3. Juan Mata is lower than Ozil at 0.5 and Eden Hazard is at 0.4 - both lower than Ozil. Also, Silva only started 2 games all season in an attacking midfield position, he played deeper this year for City.
If we look at total tackles from the AM position, Ozil had 12 all season, Erikssen 17, Hazard 11, Mahrez 11, Pogba 7....
Are you saying that if Ozil made 5 more tackles all season (to equal Erikseen) it would have made any significant difference?

Will Hughes at Watford made 2.5 per game. Do you think he would be a better option than Ozil?
Iwobi made 18 by the way - so a top player for us right?

The main problem with Ozil is that the fans and club seem to be demanding that he chases round the pitch tackling people. That is not his game. He's been pressured into playing a game that he is. frankly, rubbish at. He should be told to not worry about tackling or chasing back - but to simply find space and create.

If we really need a player who has the best balance (maybe in Europe) of creative play and tackling then we need to go out and buy James Maddison - before he heads off to City/Utd/Barca/Real.


But even under Wenger where he didn't have that sort of responsibility, he'd go missing and pull in similar underwhelming performances. I can accept he's not a defensive player and weak in that area but it's his attacking output and influence that he has on attack that I find underwhelming.


Ozil is the very model of a player who will make a good team better, but a shite team no better at all (and maybe worse).
He's not going control games in a team full of decidely average (being kind) players. He's not the kind of player who can drag a team to a win and never has been. Ozil performs very well when we are able to dominate games and can be the player to unlock a defenisive unit. Up against the better teams, with out first team quality? Not so much... actually not at all.

That's why we should sell him if we can. He's the icing on the cake, not the core ingredients. Right now we have icing around a pile a doghshit. It's not ever going to taste very nice.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:48 am

Jay thats actually one of the best explanations and descriptions about Ozil I have read. Sums him and our situation up accurately. Except for the pile of shit bit, I agree its not what it should be but don't agree it is that shit
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:58 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Ozil is the very model of a player who will make a good team better, but a shite team no better at all (and maybe worse).
He's not going control games in a team full of decidely average (being kind) players. He's not the kind of player who can drag a team to a win and never has been. Ozil performs very well when we are able to dominate games and can be the player to unlock a defenisive unit. Up against the better teams, with out first team quality? Not so much... actually not at all.

That's why we should sell him if we can. He's the icing on the cake, not the core ingredients. Right now we have icing around a pile a doghshit. It's not ever going to taste very nice.


AKA a luxury player, which we've known for years now.

Ozil has spent more time here than at any other club, and yet he has never attempted to adapt his game to reflect that he doesn't have Ronaldo, Benzema or Muller to do the heavy lifting. That's his biggest failing for me.

People can throw out stats like "more assists than everyone but Messi" all they like, but Messi has been a one man team when Barca/Argentina needed him to be. Theres also the small matter of Messi having 600 goals to go along with his assists.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:44 pm

aniym wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Ozil is the very model of a player who will make a good team better, but a shite team no better at all (and maybe worse).
He's not going control games in a team full of decidely average (being kind) players. He's not the kind of player who can drag a team to a win and never has been. Ozil performs very well when we are able to dominate games and can be the player to unlock a defenisive unit. Up against the better teams, with out first team quality? Not so much... actually not at all.

That's why we should sell him if we can. He's the icing on the cake, not the core ingredients. Right now we have icing around a pile a doghshit. It's not ever going to taste very nice.


AKA a luxury player, which we've known for years now.

Ozil has spent more time here than at any other club, and yet he has never attempted to adapt his game to reflect that he doesn't have Ronaldo, Benzema or Muller to do the heavy lifting. That's his biggest failing for me.

People can throw out stats like "more assists than everyone but Messi" all they like, but Messi has been a one man team when Barca/Argentina needed him to be. Theres also the small matter of Messi having 600 goals to go along with his assists.


Why are you comparing Ozil to Messi?????
We all know that Ozil is not Messi and we also all know that Ozil is not a player that will win games on his own.
If we had better players, he'd shine in the team - because he is enormously talented.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:55 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
aniym wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Ozil is the very model of a player who will make a good team better, but a shite team no better at all (and maybe worse).
He's not going control games in a team full of decidely average (being kind) players. He's not the kind of player who can drag a team to a win and never has been. Ozil performs very well when we are able to dominate games and can be the player to unlock a defenisive unit. Up against the better teams, with out first team quality? Not so much... actually not at all.

That's why we should sell him if we can. He's the icing on the cake, not the core ingredients. Right now we have icing around a pile a doghshit. It's not ever going to taste very nice.


AKA a luxury player, which we've known for years now.

Ozil has spent more time here than at any other club, and yet he has never attempted to adapt his game to reflect that he doesn't have Ronaldo, Benzema or Muller to do the heavy lifting. That's his biggest failing for me.

People can throw out stats like "more assists than everyone but Messi" all they like, but Messi has been a one man team when Barca/Argentina needed him to be. Theres also the small matter of Messi having 600 goals to go along with his assists.


Why are you comparing Ozil to Messi?????
We all know that Ozil is not Messi and we also all know that Ozil is not a player that will win games on his own.
If we had better players, he'd shine in the team - because he is enormously talented.



Because that's where the level of discourse on this thread is now:

Angelito wrote:
aniym wrote:You'd be laighed out of the room if you tried to discuss KDB, Coutinho, Eriksen or even Fabregas' performances with "chances created".


2nd most assists in the history of the game after one Lionel Messi.

What was that again?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Nuggets » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:43 am

Arsenal hatch plan to offload Mesut Ozil as Gunners table new proposal to clubs
ARSENAL boss Unai Emery has come up with a fresh plan to sell Mesut Ozil, as the Gunners offer the midfielder to teams in Turkey in a bid to get him off the wage bill.

That's the only place Ozil will go, let's hope his best man gives it the nod.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby aniym » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:25 pm

The Turkish Top 3 clubs are all deeply in debt, the only one that might bite is Erdogan's Basekcehir, and that's for propaganda purposes only.

Which would be fine by me, cuz ain't no one buying Ozil for his football.
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