Mesut Özil (10)

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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby LMAO » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:21 am

Sadly, Ozil doesn't fit the modern game; it's largely the same for James. Traditional 10s have been cycled out. If you want to play a 10 nowadays, then he better be a B2B that is great in the final third or a second striker that can press.

Angelito wrote:Who will win the UCL next season?


La Demicocuarta :biggrin:
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby LMAO » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:44 am

EliteKiller wrote: So where's the legend that is Ozil? .... here's some 2018/19 stats for all things attacking ..... seems our hero has gone missing again

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Extremely misleading graph. Other than Savanier, there aren't any midfielders. According to this graph, we could say Modric, Kroos, Isco, Arthur, Eriksen, Pogba, and the Silva boys aren't elite.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Emeryates » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:46 am

Ozil has done nothing to justify a starting place, let alone 350k a week
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:28 am

LMAO wrote:Extremely misleading graph. Other than Savanier, there aren't any midfielders. According to this graph, we could say Modric, Kroos, Isco, Arthur, Eriksen, Pogba, and the Silva boys aren't elite.


I was using the graph to refute the never ending bullshit claim that Ozil is "the most creative player in the universe" ... he's not even in the top one hundred goals and assists for 2018/19 (and you can shove the mythical chances created where the sun don't shine) .... What he was, did, once upon a time, nobody's arguing about that .... but right now he's a busted flush, sadly one on which we went all-in ...
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:55 am

StLGooner wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Losmeister wrote:glad the chances created got used again.

pass to xhaka, he blooters 15 yds over from 25 yds...chance created.

The same stat is applied to EVERY player in the world, but but but because it is Ozil and Ozil leads it, the stat is somehow invalid :lol:


We've had this debate before but I have never heard anyone bring that particular stat up until we signed Ozil. In fact, to this day nobody looks at that stat for any other player unless it's Ozil.

And before we signed Ozil how many of us had access to stats ? Timed have changed, there are far more stats available and accessible by us all for free



Everyone that has a computer. :lol:

A quick google search comes up with an article from 2011 talking about this stat, specifically for the EPL. Ozil came in 2013.

And I'm not exactly against your Ozil argument, whatever that may be, I'm just against any bad argument, which this one seemed to be. Cheers!

Actually its a perfectly fine argument, because people were not arguing about these more advanced stats back in 2011!! For example, you can go on these sites and pull up stats that go back long before people even knew stats existed - it doesn't mean those stats were publically available at that time for that period.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:02 am

Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Zedie » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:40 am

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:48 am

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


I'm not going to put much value in it if I can see how it's counted. Example, the Europa League final against Chelsea, that long distance shot Xhaka had in the first half, that counts as a chance created and I believe it was a simple sideways pass from Kola to set it up. Would you put much stock in that pass since Kola came away with 2 chances created in that final? Rewatch the highlights.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:44 am

Zedie wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.


Not sure we can know from recorded stats the position of the tackles, but it's true that Ozil ranks low for attacking midfielders on tackles per game... it's at 0.6. It's not much of a difference, though across all attacking midfielders. Silva is at 1.0, Erikssen at 1.3. Juan Mata is lower than Ozil at 0.5 and Eden Hazard is at 0.4 - both lower than Ozil. Also, Silva only started 2 games all season in an attacking midfield position, he played deeper this year for City.
If we look at total tackles from the AM position, Ozil had 12 all season, Erikssen 17, Hazard 11, Mahrez 11, Pogba 7....
Are you saying that if Ozil made 5 more tackles all season (to equal Erikseen) it would have made any significant difference?

Will Hughes at Watford made 2.5 per game. Do you think he would be a better option than Ozil?
Iwobi made 18 by the way - so a top player for us right?

The main problem with Ozil is that the fans and club seem to be demanding that he chases round the pitch tackling people. That is not his game. He's been pressured into playing a game that he is. frankly, rubbish at. He should be told to not worry about tackling or chasing back - but to simply find space and create.

If we really need a player who has the best balance (maybe in Europe) of creative play and tackling then we need to go out and buy James Maddison - before he heads off to City/Utd/Barca/Real.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:10 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.


Not sure we can know from recorded stats the position of the tackles, but it's true that Ozil ranks low for attacking midfielders on tackles per game... it's at 0.6. It's not much of a difference, though across all attacking midfielders. Silva is at 1.0, Erikssen at 1.3. Juan Mata is lower than Ozil at 0.5 and Eden Hazard is at 0.4 - both lower than Ozil. Also, Silva only started 2 games all season in an attacking midfield position, he played deeper this year for City.
If we look at total tackles from the AM position, Ozil had 12 all season, Erikssen 17, Hazard 11, Mahrez 11, Pogba 7....
Are you saying that if Ozil made 5 more tackles all season (to equal Erikseen) it would have made any significant difference?

Will Hughes at Watford made 2.5 per game. Do you think he would be a better option than Ozil?
Iwobi made 18 by the way - so a top player for us right?

The main problem with Ozil is that the fans and club seem to be demanding that he chases round the pitch tackling people. That is not his game. He's been pressured into playing a game that he is. frankly, rubbish at. He should be told to not worry about tackling or chasing back - but to simply find space and create.

If we really need a player who has the best balance (maybe in Europe) of creative play and tackling then we need to go out and buy James Maddison - before he heads off to City/Utd/Barca/Real.


But even under Wenger where he didn't have that sort of responsibility, he'd go missing and pull in similar underwhelming performances. I can accept he's not a defensive player and weak in that area but it's his attacking output and influence that he has on attack that I find underwhelming.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:01 am

He’s a Ferrari on a farm. Shame we’ve become a farm under Emery.
Five seasons before Wenger joined Arsenal league finishes were 4,10,4,12,5.
Five seasons before Emery joined 4,3,2,5,6.
End the myth that Emery inherited a shit squad and Wenger a great one.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby NJ_Gunner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:22 am

So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:50 am

The same can be said about Granit Xhaka. Trying to make do with such players with clear defensive limitations in central midfield is a road to nowhere and what they offer going forward isn't enough to justify a starting place.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:54 am

theHotHead wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Losmeister wrote:glad the chances created got used again.

pass to xhaka, he blooters 15 yds over from 25 yds...chance created.

The same stat is applied to EVERY player in the world, but but but because it is Ozil and Ozil leads it, the stat is somehow invalid :lol:


We've had this debate before but I have never heard anyone bring that particular stat up until we signed Ozil. In fact, to this day nobody looks at that stat for any other player unless it's Ozil.

And before we signed Ozil how many of us had access to stats ? Timed have changed, there are far more stats available and accessible by us all for free



Everyone that has a computer. :lol:

A quick google search comes up with an article from 2011 talking about this stat, specifically for the EPL. Ozil came in 2013.

And I'm not exactly against your Ozil argument, whatever that may be, I'm just against any bad argument, which this one seemed to be. Cheers!

Actually its a perfectly fine argument, because people were not arguing about these more advanced stats back in 2011!! For example, you can go on these sites and pull up stats that go back long before people even knew stats existed - it doesn't mean those stats were publically available at that time for that period.




But they were before Ozil came here, which is what you're trying to argue against in that statement, so you're wrong.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:03 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!



Hey Hothead, I'm actually on your side in the overall Ozil argument, but this stat is kind of shit if I'm honest. It doesn't do Ozil any favors for your argument, because like Power said, you don't have to do much on the pitch to get a chances created stat put next to your name. So it kind of defeats the purpose of using it to argue in his favor, when this stat seems to be handed out like candy on Halloween. Plus like I said on a previous page, they give you a pretty broad definition of what can be claimed as a chance created.
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