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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby jayramfootball » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:44 am

Zedie wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.


Not sure we can know from recorded stats the position of the tackles, but it's true that Ozil ranks low for attacking midfielders on tackles per game... it's at 0.6. It's not much of a difference, though across all attacking midfielders. Silva is at 1.0, Erikssen at 1.3. Juan Mata is lower than Ozil at 0.5 and Eden Hazard is at 0.4 - both lower than Ozil. Also, Silva only started 2 games all season in an attacking midfield position, he played deeper this year for City.
If we look at total tackles from the AM position, Ozil had 12 all season, Erikssen 17, Hazard 11, Mahrez 11, Pogba 7....
Are you saying that if Ozil made 5 more tackles all season (to equal Erikseen) it would have made any significant difference?

Will Hughes at Watford made 2.5 per game. Do you think he would be a better option than Ozil?
Iwobi made 18 by the way - so a top player for us right?

The main problem with Ozil is that the fans and club seem to be demanding that he chases round the pitch tackling people. That is not his game. He's been pressured into playing a game that he is. frankly, rubbish at. He should be told to not worry about tackling or chasing back - but to simply find space and create.

If we really need a player who has the best balance (maybe in Europe) of creative play and tackling then we need to go out and buy James Maddison - before he heads off to City/Utd/Barca/Real.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:10 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Zedie wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!


Ozil runs the distance, he just never puts his head or foot in.

Here's a stat I'd like to see: number of duels and tackles won in the attacking third.

I bet all of the other usual suspects like eriksen and Silva etc have significantly better stats than ozil.


Not sure we can know from recorded stats the position of the tackles, but it's true that Ozil ranks low for attacking midfielders on tackles per game... it's at 0.6. It's not much of a difference, though across all attacking midfielders. Silva is at 1.0, Erikssen at 1.3. Juan Mata is lower than Ozil at 0.5 and Eden Hazard is at 0.4 - both lower than Ozil. Also, Silva only started 2 games all season in an attacking midfield position, he played deeper this year for City.
If we look at total tackles from the AM position, Ozil had 12 all season, Erikssen 17, Hazard 11, Mahrez 11, Pogba 7....
Are you saying that if Ozil made 5 more tackles all season (to equal Erikseen) it would have made any significant difference?

Will Hughes at Watford made 2.5 per game. Do you think he would be a better option than Ozil?
Iwobi made 18 by the way - so a top player for us right?

The main problem with Ozil is that the fans and club seem to be demanding that he chases round the pitch tackling people. That is not his game. He's been pressured into playing a game that he is. frankly, rubbish at. He should be told to not worry about tackling or chasing back - but to simply find space and create.

If we really need a player who has the best balance (maybe in Europe) of creative play and tackling then we need to go out and buy James Maddison - before he heads off to City/Utd/Barca/Real.


But even under Wenger where he didn't have that sort of responsibility, he'd go missing and pull in similar underwhelming performances. I can accept he's not a defensive player and weak in that area but it's his attacking output and influence that he has on attack that I find underwhelming.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:01 am

He’s a Ferrari on a farm. Shame we’ve become a farm under Emery.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby NJ_Gunner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:22 am

So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:50 am

The same can be said about Granit Xhaka. Trying to make do with such players with clear defensive limitations in central midfield is a road to nowhere and what they offer going forward isn't enough to justify a starting place.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:54 am

theHotHead wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Losmeister wrote:glad the chances created got used again.

pass to xhaka, he blooters 15 yds over from 25 yds...chance created.

The same stat is applied to EVERY player in the world, but but but because it is Ozil and Ozil leads it, the stat is somehow invalid :lol:


We've had this debate before but I have never heard anyone bring that particular stat up until we signed Ozil. In fact, to this day nobody looks at that stat for any other player unless it's Ozil.

And before we signed Ozil how many of us had access to stats ? Timed have changed, there are far more stats available and accessible by us all for free



Everyone that has a computer. :lol:

A quick google search comes up with an article from 2011 talking about this stat, specifically for the EPL. Ozil came in 2013.

And I'm not exactly against your Ozil argument, whatever that may be, I'm just against any bad argument, which this one seemed to be. Cheers!

Actually its a perfectly fine argument, because people were not arguing about these more advanced stats back in 2011!! For example, you can go on these sites and pull up stats that go back long before people even knew stats existed - it doesn't mean those stats were publically available at that time for that period.




But they were before Ozil came here, which is what you're trying to argue against in that statement, so you're wrong.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:03 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
StLGooner wrote:From the article I just read on that stat. It looks like it was created to give credit and notice to good players on bad teams. So if a quality number 10 player was on a bad team, his teammates aren't going to bang in many of the chances he gives them, thus him not having great assist stats, which many teams look at I'd imagine. So it appears this stat was created to help in that regard.


If you watch the games where it says Ozil created some chances, you'd see what's counted. I have a hard time recalling games where Ozil has laid chances on a plate for players but they have fluffed the chance. I've watched games where he's been anonymous yet seen the stats after the game where it says he created 3 chances.


Just to start, I'm not arguing anything here, just stating why the stat was created from what I've read.


Well I know Auba and Laca missed some easy goals this season, I don't remember either who set them up for him, but I'm sure sometime during this season some assist were missed that could have been Ozils. Besides the point really though.


If you read the article I did, they give a pretty broad explanation of how they give the stat to a player. Which to me means it's kind of a flawed stat. I get what they were trying to do, but sometimes you can't put a statistic on a players performance, you just have to watch and see it with your own eyes and then decide. Also, sometimes even though a number 10 might not have a goal or assist, they still can have a great game controlling the midfield, not losing the ball, making great turns with it and decisions, but that will never show up on a stats sheet. And I think that is why they created this stat, to try and bring those type of games to every ones attention.


I hear you and just adding what I make of the stat and how it doesn't always tally with the games I watch.

But if a stat does not tally with what you watch you can't instantly dismiss it. We went through this with the "Ozil is lazy" argument, then figures released by the club I believe had Ozil somewhere in the top 5 of distance covered - but still haters argued he was lazy because "he looked it" or because he "didn't run back". How can you argue against a fact!



Hey Hothead, I'm actually on your side in the overall Ozil argument, but this stat is kind of shit if I'm honest. It doesn't do Ozil any favors for your argument, because like Power said, you don't have to do much on the pitch to get a chances created stat put next to your name. So it kind of defeats the purpose of using it to argue in his favor, when this stat seems to be handed out like candy on Halloween. Plus like I said on a previous page, they give you a pretty broad definition of what can be claimed as a chance created.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:12 pm

NJ_Gunner wrote:So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.


What would you rather have, a 40% boost to our transfer budget, or another year of Ozil pocketing £18m for a few G+A vs crap teams and completely invisible against good teams?

We are not a team that can afford to give a bench player the salary of 3 men.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:44 pm

I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby StLGooner » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:48 pm

theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.



I agree with that.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:15 pm

theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.


There is a stat for chance creation and stat for big chance creations. Ozil was nowhere near the top for this season on big chances. What counts as a big chance would be the one Willock missed where Lacazette played him clean through on goal with a tidy one two..it's not just any pass that results in a shot.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ce_created

Ryan Fraser topped the chart with 28 but finished with 14 assists and ended up 2nd. That to me suggests he'd have done way better with more clinical strikers. Ozil is nowhere to be seen on this chart.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Arsenal Tone » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:09 am

NJ_Gunner wrote:So I’ll agree Ozil doesn’t look the player he used to be. But realistically speaking, if we do have the £40m budget we need to keep him. If reports are true we’re already spending the entire budget possibly on Saliba and Tierney who are both defenders. We lost Ramsey, and Xhaka and torreira can’t play attacking mid. What exactly is the plan next season if we sell Ozil? Even if he doesn’t start every game he’s useful off the bench. I know people will say transferring him frees up wages for other players but realistically I think we all know we’re not buying anyone with that. It’ll just go right back in Kroenkes pockets.
I think we go from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3. Our defence has been the problem so add a DM to sit in front and protect them:

From

-------CF
LWF-Ozil-RWF
----CM-CM

to

-------CF
RWF-----LWF
----CM--CM
------DM
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby gooney » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:52 am

If ozil asked to terminate his contract.....arsenal would jump on that. Says everything you need to know
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:05 am

Power n Glory wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I get that. But that stat is applied to all players so if it is as broad as you say it is - and I am not saying it isn't - surely the other attacking midfielders who are allegedly head and shoulders better than Ozil should be absolutely crushing Ozil with better numbers then, right?

But they are not, so why is that? My guess is perhaps Ozil is not as bad as some people are making out. I think Ozil has largely been ineffective for a few years, but he still creates chances. I think in the right team he would do better, but the manager needs to take advantage of his attributes otherwise sell him, half an Ozil is no good to anyone.


There is a stat for chance creation and stat for big chance creations. Ozil was nowhere near the top for this season on big chances. What counts as a big chance would be the one Willock missed where Lacazette played him clean through on goal with a tidy one two..it's not just any pass that results in a shot.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ce_created

Ryan Fraser topped the chart with 28 but finished with 14 assists and ended up 2nd. That to me suggests he'd have done way better with more clinical strikers. Ozil is nowhere to be seen on this chart.

Yes, a stat that fits your agenda you will champion. Cool. But don't try to knock my equally relevant stat.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:08 am

gooney wrote:If ozil asked to terminate his contract.....arsenal would jump on that. Says everything you need to know

Yes, It tells us Ozil should not be on £350k per week, thats all. No player in the world should be on that sort of money. Messi and Ronaldo should be and that's yer lot.
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