Martin Ødegaard (8)

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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby ag6789 » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:07 pm

Stats/math been always in use in football even in the 20s- 30s.
Absence of calculator or laptop and TV doesn't mean people were ignorant of the numbers and their significance. Check the history of league matches 100 yrs ago. Everything is recorded in detail.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:00 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Maiso wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I have no interest in debating this with a dweeb.

Yes I called you a name, booo hoooo. You are boring and can't argue. I want to be juvenile with you because thats what you deserve. Don't like it, f**k off then!

Man tells me he doesn't pay attention to stats and wants to argue points easily provable - and have been proved - by stats. Gtfoh.

I swear. And you were trying to make fun of me being a millennial when you argue like a 16 year old twitter warrior.

I will say it again. Stats on their own mean little. Like with this whole back and forth. It clearly shows that even with all these amazing Ozil stats you keep harping about they did not save him. Hence why he dropped from a title winning and CL challenging club like Madrid to a 4th place struggler club like Arsenal. You can get triggered all you like but that won’t change the FACT that Stats on their own mean nothing.
Smh



Maiso that isn't what you said initially, though.
You said stats mean nothing and you watch only.
I agree that stats on their own can be really misleading, but probably not as misleading as just watching alone and ignoring stats.
If you do the latter and consider whether Ozil as chasing back a lot and making tackles, you come to the false conclusion that Ozil was lazy, for example.

For me, I have rarely seen a player as creative as Ozil , who could spot and perfectly execute a pass to open up defences either directly to create chances or indirectly as part of a move. I think his last 2 seasons were a bit of a disaster TBH and he was certainly on the decline, but too many seem to judge him on the recency of watching him - i.e. those last 2 years.

Sorry Jay but I watched Ozil playing for us from the first game to his last. And after his second season I knew he was going to be a waste of £42 million. We should have used that money to buy a striker to be honest. And from that season I started calling out his laziness because it was obvious every game. He used to frustrate me so much every time I saw his equals (Modric, David Silva, KDB, Cesc, Cazorla, etc) all standing up to be counted. It’s his laziness / one dimensional style that cemented my opinion of him to today. Found him absolutely boring to watch. I was consistently frustrated watching him go through the motions, instead of manning up. Always complaining to the referee, his arms constantly up in the air because he was muscled by the opposition players. We are being pummelled / overrun in any given game and he is all in his feelings and emotions, walking with his head down like the whole world was on his shoulders. The guy would hide and be so anonymous in most games, it was ridiculous. He was supposed to be our poster boy for that team, but his Arsenal career was so underwhelming it’s unbelievable. Hence why it ended with a an absolute wimper. With all that hype and expectations he came with.

Jay, When we signed Ozil, I thought we were getting an attacking midfielder in somewhat a similar category as the likes of; KDB, Cazorla, David Silva, Modric, Cesc, Cazorla etc in terms of creativity, goals threat, work rate, controlling and dominating games. With the amount of overhype, worship and praise that accompanied him to Arsenal, I thought he was going to turn out like this current Odegaard (That level of performance). But my expectations were squashed by his fans when they started coming up with catchphrases such as:

1) Don’t expect Ozil to control, dominate or be visible all the time in most games. That’s not his style, it’s not his game. He is just cherry on top that will be anonymous for 80 minutes but then out of nowhere will come up with that killer pass to win you a tight game.

2) Don’t expect Ozil to score you goals, that has never been his game. He is not a striker.

3) Don’t expect Ozil to press, trackback or put in a tackle. That has never been his game. He can only find pockets of space. That’s his game.

4) Don’t expect Ozil to be a leader on the pitch. That’s have never been personality or his game.

5) Don’t expect Ozil to run around, he is not a headless chicken. Why do you want him to play like a Stoke City / Tony Pulis kind of player? Let the rest of his teammates do all the pressing, running, tracking back, tackling and winning the ball back etc and then deliver that ball to him blah blah. Smh

6) How do you expect Ozil to perform when he is surrounded by average players. He went from playing with the likes of Ronaldo, Benzema etc to playing with average pub players like Arteta, Giroud, Ramsey, Xhaka etc.

7) Ozil is used to having a winter break. But in the premier league he does not get that..

Etc..

The guy was supposed to be our go to guy. We had broken our record transfer fee of £42 million and also our wage record for him. And most of our fans were willing to compromise on performances in order to simp for Ozil. You know “Don’t expect Ozil to do this and that…” kind of catchphrases. :naughty:

When his fans started coming up with such nonsense in his second season, I knew straight away that he was not going to be a success in the EPL. I then accepted that we had been scammed out of £42 million by Madrid.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Salibatelli » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:29 pm

Modern methods do not necessarily equate to better.

Just look at how football has evolved, is that better, I don’t think so.

Change is not always for the better and I don’t think stats has made the game better, we picked up players like Pires, Campbell etc on their performances and that worked perfectly well.

If it’s ain’t broke don’t fix it.

They did and now we have a very sterile game where players seemingly play for stats and not to maximise their biggest talents.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:58 pm

Salibatelli wrote:Modern methods do not necessarily equate to better.

Just look at how football has evolved, is that better, I don’t think so.

Change is not always for the better and I don’t think stats has made the game better, we picked up players like Pires, Campbell etc on their performances and that worked perfectly well.

If it’s ain’t broke don’t fix it.

They did and now we have a very sterile game where players seemingly play for stats and not to maximise their biggest talents.



The game has passed you by and become too complex for you to understand, so you seem to hate it.
Don't watch it then, perhaps?
Why would you be watching a team and sport you hate and find boring???
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:00 pm

@maiso

If you were expecting Ozil to be like those players you mentioned, did you even watch him before he came to Arsenal?
He was never much like those players. :dontknow:

You said you knew he was no good after his second season with us?
Really.
He was superb at that point, i thought.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Salibatelli » Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:14 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Salibatelli wrote:Modern methods do not necessarily equate to better.

Just look at how football has evolved, is that better, I don’t think so.

Change is not always for the better and I don’t think stats has made the game better, we picked up players like Pires, Campbell etc on their performances and that worked perfectly well.

If it’s ain’t broke don’t fix it.

They did and now we have a very sterile game where players seemingly play for stats and not to maximise their biggest talents.



The game has passed you by and become too complex for you to understand, so you seem to hate it.
Don't watch it then, perhaps?
Why would you be watching a team and sport you hate and find boring???


It’s not complex, it’s not very good and devoid of individual flair and those brilliant moments you would see years ago, physicality has also been removed and the rules are just odd (offside, penalties, free kick etc).

I understand it, I just don’t like what these managers and coaches are doing to the game, the micromanaging and overcoaching is prevalent everywhere you look nowadays.

It’s become a game for pansies , who earn huge amounts for being able to run around.

The only thing that’s better is the marketing, marketing this stuff as some sort of brilliant evolution, utterly clueless.

Why does anyone watch sport, in the hope of being entertained and you can still be at times when there’s a competitive game and not this stuff where one team steamrollers the other or nothing happens except 5 yard misses and telegraphed play.

I can’t wait for the day managers start to promote individuality and strikers can finish again rather than this sterile stuff that is like watching 10 overcoached robots running around with no personality.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:40 pm

theHotHead wrote:This is like when a baby lion is given a small animal to learn how to kill. He toys with it and plays with it then eventually the parent comes and kills the small animal.

I have zero interest debating this with you, its 2024 and you are here writing f***ing essays about Ozil, this has been done to death times 1000, its boring, you are boring. Bore off mate.

And I love how you have worked so hard to deflect from addressing my main point of contention. Every time I have pushed you to address it you have deflected, gotten into your own feelings and emotions, gotten triggered and ended up throwing childish insults at me thinking that juvenile behaviour would get off my main point. This is what has you all hot and cold all this time “If Ozil’s Stats were that amazing and the Be and End all. If he was such a World class player that would have walked into any big team back then. Then how come with all that good stuff on his side Madrid told him to find another club as he was not good enough for what they wanted going forward?. Then this same world class player that you claim would have walked into any team back then failed to attract any single big club, hence why he ended up at my beloved “4th place is like a trophy” Arsenal. Many Arsenal fans say that he had a good first 2 to 3 seasons at Arsenal but still not a single big club ever tried to sign him.

He ran down his contract but still he couldn’t attract or entice any big teams to sign him. Then when we were desperate to get rid of him in 2020, offered to give him away to any team for free and also pay his full wages on top of that.. Even that did not entice any single big club to sign him. They all wouldn’t touch him with a bargepole. Then this world class player that could have walked into any big team ended up walking into the mighty Fenerbache and Istanbul teams. I guess he was too world class for the likes of Madrid, Bayern, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man United etc..
Right? Smh

So next time don’t come at me with your shallow, twitter level fallacious and sensationalistic argumentative style or I will force you to act your age once again. You need to stop arguing like a shallow 14 year old on social media. It’s embarrassing. You are old enough to be a grandfather so learn how to argue in a much more mature way that reflect your age. Smh

Anyways, I will let you off even you failed to address the point I highlighted in BOLD. But you have a “ slippery Politician” way of deflecting and not addressing / Answering the asked questions.
:clap:
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Rockape » Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:53 pm

I was a big Ozil fan, before he came to the Emirates and during some of those early performances for us. I recall explaining to my brother that he was one of the best players I had ever seen and his ability was amazing.

But…. These performances were rarely followed by another one and it left me feeling a bit frustrated. Clearly the great performances became rarer and rarer, which then coincided with Arteta losing the faith. After that, it was the slippery slope to him finally leaving.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Sat Mar 30, 2024 7:01 am

Maiso wrote:
theHotHead wrote:This is like when a baby lion is given a small animal to learn how to kill. He toys with it and plays with it then eventually the parent comes and kills the small animal.

I have zero interest debating this with you, its 2024 and you are here writing f***ing essays about Ozil, this has been done to death times 1000, its boring, you are boring. Bore off mate.

And I love how you have worked so hard to deflect from addressing my main point of contention. Every time I have pushed you to address it you have deflected, gotten into your own feelings and emotions, gotten triggered and ended up throwing childish insults at me thinking that juvenile behaviour would get off my main point. This is what has you all hot and cold all this time “If Ozil’s Stats were that amazing and the Be and End all. If he was such a World class player that would have walked into any big team back then. Then how come with all that good stuff on his side Madrid told him to find another club as he was not good enough for what they wanted going forward?. Then this same world class player that you claim would have walked into any team back then failed to attract any single big club, hence why he ended up at my beloved “4th place is like a trophy” Arsenal. Many Arsenal fans say that he had a good first 2 to 3 seasons at Arsenal but still not a single big club ever tried to sign him.

He ran down his contract but still he couldn’t attract or entice any big teams to sign him. Then when we were desperate to get rid of him in 2020, offered to give him away to any team for free and also pay his full wages on top of that.. Even that did not entice any single big club to sign him. They all wouldn’t touch him with a bargepole. Then this world class player that could have walked into any big team ended up walking into the mighty Fenerbache and Istanbul teams. I guess he was too world class for the likes of Madrid, Bayern, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man United etc..
Right? Smh

So next time don’t come at me with your shallow, twitter level fallacious and sensationalistic argumentative style or I will force you to act your age once again. You need to stop arguing like a shallow 14 year old on social media. It’s embarrassing. You are old enough to be a grandfather so learn how to argue in a much more mature way that reflect your age. Smh

Anyways, I will let you off even you failed to address the point I highlighted in BOLD. But you have a “ slippery Politician” way of deflecting and not addressing / Answering the asked questions.
:clap:

Right on cue.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:09 pm

jayramfootball wrote:@maiso

If you were expecting Ozil to be like those players you mentioned, did you even watch him before he came to Arsenal?
He was never much like those players. :dontknow:

You said you knew he was no good after his second season with us?
Really.
He was superb at that point, i thought.

To be honest I did not know that much about Ozil before he joined Arsenal. So may be my expectations of him were misplaced.
I went with what I heard from our fans and pundits at the time. The hype, worship and highest praises I heard back then got me all thinking “We are signing someone better or on the same overall performance level as the likes of Cazorla, Cesc, David Silva, Modric, Iniesta etc..”

I must admit, I was sold that over the top Ozil propaganda by his fans, our fans and pundits:
Ozil is the best No10 in the world.
He is world class.
Ozil is a generational talent.
The Assists King.
The Chances created King.
He sees passes no one else can see.
Finally we have reppaced the great Berkamp.
He is going to take Arsenal to the different level.
This guy won the German player of the year 5 times.
Ozil is midfield beast.
It was Ozil that made C.Ronaldo shine, blah blah.

On top of that the Stats monsters could stop going on about his world class stats. But then On top of that the YouTube clip editors piled on with their best of Ozil clips.

Then we broke our transfer record by paying £42 million and also broke our wage record for him.

So with all that, no one could blame me for thinking we were signing a serious attacking midfielder or rival the likes of David Silva. Can you blame me? Then when I watched him with my own eyes I was thinking to myself “What the flip?”. Then the catchphrases was concocted “Don’t expect Ozil to do this, don’t expect him to do this and that’s not his style etc…
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:12 pm

Maiso wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:@maiso

If you were expecting Ozil to be like those players you mentioned, did you even watch him before he came to Arsenal?
He was never much like those players. :dontknow:

You said you knew he was no good after his second season with us?
Really.
He was superb at that point, i thought.

To be honest I did not know that much about Ozil before he joined Arsenal. So may be my expectations of him were misplaced.
I went with what I heard from our fans and pundits at the time. The hype, worship and highest praises I heard back then got me all thinking “We are signing someone better or on the same overall performance level as the likes of Cazorla, Cesc, David Silva, Modric, Iniesta etc..”

I must admit, I was sold that over the top Ozil propaganda by his fans, our fans and pundits:
Ozil is the best No10 in the world.
He is world class.
Ozil is a generational talent.
The Assists King.
The Chances created King.
He sees passes no one else can see.
Finally we have reppaced the great Berkamp.
He is going to take Arsenal to the different level.
This guy won the German player of the year 5 times.
Ozil is midfield beast.
It was Ozil that made C.Ronaldo shine, blah blah.

On top of that the Stats monsters could stop going on about his world class stats. But then On top of that the YouTube clip editors piled on with their best of Ozil clips.

Then we broke our transfer record by paying £42 million and also broke our wage record for him.

So with all that, no one could blame me for thinking we were signing a serious attacking midfielder or rival the likes of David Silva. Can you blame me? Then when I watched him with my own eyes I was thinking to myself “What the flip?”. Then the catchphrases was concocted “Don’t expect Ozil to do this, don’t expect him to do this and that’s not his style etc…


You thought Ozil was not excellent for us in his first few seasons?
I thought he was - especially his second season where he looked every bit world class.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:17 am

ag6789 wrote:Stats/math been always in use in football even in the 20s- 30s.
Absence of calculator or laptop and TV doesn't mean people were ignorant of the numbers and their significance. Check the history of league matches 100 yrs ago. Everything is recorded in detail.

So back in the 50’s, 60’s 70’s, 80’s 90’s and early 2000’s etc how did we interpret player performance when these computer models / software that will tell you every players Chances Created, Blocked shots per Minute, Expected Goals for, individual distance covered, pockets of Space found, Short player Bursts per Second, Player Heart rate per Second, etc did not exist?

So back in the day football fans would run to their nearest black and white TV’s to excess “Teletex” for player stats?.

They would run to their nearest Analogue ELF, SLF, VHF, UFH, TFH, AM, FM radios etc to deeply analyse / look into player and Match Stats?

They would run and buy Monday’s Local Gazette News paper, The Daily telegragh, The Sun, The News Of The World, The Mirror, The Daily Mail, The Financial times, The Times News papers etc so that they could do a proper deep dive and analysis into the weekend’s game Stats before they could form their own opinion?

In the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s’, 90’s and early 2000’s after every game, people would just run to their nearest “Internet Cafe” to have access to a computer in order for them to look up / dive into all the stats of the games they just witnessed with their own eyes at the weekend. Then and only then could they have come to a more objective conclusion about the games they just watched that weekend?

I just never got this over obsession with all kinds of irrelevant / out of context stats since about 2010.

Just out of Curiosity.. I don’t want you to even go back to the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s. Just go back to 2003/04 invincible and tell me what Vieira, Berkamp, Henry’s, Pires, Ljumberg’s Chances Created, Weighted passes per game, Expected Shots, Expected goals, Distance covered, Distance per Minute, Flicks per game, Short to long Bursts per Minute, expected Headed goals per Decade, Farts per game etc. lol.

But on a serious note. The only stats we were somewhat familiar with back in the early 2000’s were things like “Possession, Cards, assists, Shots, goals, may be Passes, blocks, tackles, Subs, Final score etc”.

I just looked up the FIFA World cup final 1986 match stats. I can’t even see those basic Stats (Possession, Shots, Tackles, Passes, Blocks, Assists, etc). All I could find was just “The scoreline, Cards, Goals scorers, What minute the goals were scored, Subs, Player Shirt numbers, etc.”. I can’t find the “Chances created, Pre-assists, Assists, Distance covered, Expected goals per game, etc”. And that was just in 1986’ and not 1970. The Stats thing gets worse the earlier you go back in time. There was non of that stuff but it seems the likes of “@hothead and @Jay” enjoyed and debated player performances back then even if the technology was stilla bit primitive and did not afford them the wealth of all sorts of stats we do have access to in 2024..

Just saying..
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:58 am

jayramfootball wrote:You thought Ozil was not excellent for us in his first few seasons?
I thought he was - especially his second season where he looked every bit world class.

Mate, I am not wasting my time arguing with someone that allegedly watches football but sees nothing.

Even the most fervent Ozil hater has to admit he had a couple of seasons with us when he was world class, namely 2015/16 and 2016/17
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:33 pm

Maiso wrote:
ag6789 wrote:Stats/math been always in use in football even in the 20s- 30s.
Absence of calculator or laptop and TV doesn't mean people were ignorant of the numbers and their significance. Check the history of league matches 100 yrs ago. Everything is recorded in detail.

So back in the 50’s, 60’s 70’s, 80’s 90’s and early 2000’s etc how did we interpret player performance when these computer models / software that will tell you every players Chances Created, Blocked shots per Minute, Expected Goals for, individual distance covered, pockets of Space found, Short player Bursts per Second, Player Heart rate per Second, etc did not exist?

So back in the day football fans would run to their nearest black and white TV’s to excess “Teletex” for player stats?.

They would run to their nearest Analogue ELF, SLF, VHF, UFH, TFH, AM, FM radios etc to deeply analyse / look into player and Match Stats?

They would run and buy Monday’s Local Gazette News paper, The Daily telegragh, The Sun, The News Of The World, The Mirror, The Daily Mail, The Financial times, The Times News papers etc so that they could do a proper deep dive and analysis into the weekend’s game Stats before they could form their own opinion?

In the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s’, 90’s and early 2000’s after every game, people would just run to their nearest “Internet Cafe” to have access to a computer in order for them to look up / dive into all the stats of the games they just witnessed with their own eyes at the weekend. Then and only then could they have come to a more objective conclusion about the games they just watched that weekend?

I just never got this over obsession with all kinds of irrelevant / out of context stats since about 2010.

Just out of Curiosity.. I don’t want you to even go back to the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s. Just go back to 2003/04 invincible and tell me what Vieira, Berkamp, Henry’s, Pires, Ljumberg’s Chances Created, Weighted passes per game, Expected Shots, Expected goals, Distance covered, Distance per Minute, Flicks per game, Short to long Bursts per Minute, expected Headed goals per Decade, Farts per game etc. lol.

But on a serious note. The only stats we were somewhat familiar with back in the early 2000’s were things like “Possession, Cards, assists, Shots, goals, may be Passes, blocks, tackles, Subs, Final score etc”.

I just looked up the FIFA World cup final 1986 match stats. I can’t even see those basic Stats (Possession, Shots, Tackles, Passes, Blocks, Assists, etc). All I could find was just “The scoreline, Cards, Goals scorers, What minute the goals were scored, Subs, Player Shirt numbers, etc.”. I can’t find the “Chances created, Pre-assists, Assists, Distance covered, Expected goals per game, etc”. And that was just in 1986’ and not 1970. The Stats thing gets worse the earlier you go back in time. There was non of that stuff but it seems the likes of “@hothead and @Jay” enjoyed and debated player performances back then even if the technology was stilla bit primitive and did not afford them the wealth of all sorts of stats we do have access to in 2024..

Just saying..


Maiso.

At some point you need to stop for second and accept that the entire football world has moved to a model of both visual and numerical analysis of players and teams.
To suggest that everyone in the professional game is somehow misguided and that you are capable of being more informed by just watching a few games is not an argument that makes any sense or that you can realistically win.
It's why I can say with confidence that no one claiming to analyse the game today has any credibility if they don't use numbers in conjunction with visual analysis.
For those content to just watch and enjoy, I say fair play, the game should primarily be about entertainment - but leave it there. Enjoy the game.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Fran Solo » Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:56 pm

The hungriest player on the pitch today.
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