Martin Ødegaard (8)

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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Marsbar100 » Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:11 pm

Ozil was very good, first few seasons, then went to shit, much better now with Ode pulling the strings
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:33 am

theHotHead wrote:Football has evolved but the pool of talented players has shrunk so much its no so much a pool - its more of a puddle.

Lets take a look t the last 2 UEFA tournaments, the players of the tournament, from the 2020 UEFA championships and the 2016 championships (11 player squads for some reason):

2020 UEFA Championships
Donnarumma, Kyle Walker, Bonnuci, Harry Maguire, Spinaszzola, Hojberg, Jorginho, Pedri, Chiesa, Lukaku, Sterling.

2016 UEFA Champinships:
Patricio, Kimmich, Pepe, Guerreiro, Kroos, Joe Allen, Griezmann, Aaron Ramsey, Payet, C Ronaldo

Lets compare to the players of the tournament in 2000 and 1996 (22 and 18 player squads):

2000 UEFA Championships
Toldo, Barthez, Thuram, Blanc, Desailly, Nesta, Cannavaro, Maldini, Frank De Boer, Vieira, Zidane, Figo, Rui Costa, Edgar Davids, Albertini, Guardiola, Henry, Kluivert, Nuno Gomes, Rul, Totti, Savo Milosevic

1996 UEFA Championships
Seaman, Andreas Kopke, Radoslav Latal, Blanc, Desailly, Matthias Sammer, Maldini, Deschamps, McManaman, Gascoigne, Rui Costa, Karel Poborsky, Deiter Eilts, Shearer, Stoichkov, Suker, Djorkaeff, Pavel Kuka

Don't make me do the World Cup as well ! You are trying to tell me football/footballers now is better than it was 20 years ago ?!! :rofll: :rofll:

So here we are once again with you hiding and deflecting while playing that typical “My childhood days were the best” talk. We addressed this earlier in our back and forth but you keep bringing it back. I know that you are stuck in the past and can never stop reminiscing and fantasising about them in the year 2024. I bet you are one of the Conservatives / right wingers around Europe and America that currently can’t stop going on about how “The West used to be amazing and the best in the 1700’s, 1800’s, 1900’s, 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s 80’s etc.. But now in 2024 the west is full of migrants, woke people, snowflakes, anti Free speech individuals and lazy irreligious people etc. My father can’t stop assuring me about how times were more fulfilling and better in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s as compared to today blah blah. You seem to be stuck in the same bubble. You better break out of it or you will keep being left behind and squeezed out like other people that refused to change and evolve with the game / times: (Wenger, Ozil, Juan Mata, James Rodriquez and even the great Ronaldinho etc). You can keep fantasising about the”Good old days” all you want. It ain’t gonna change or add anything to 2024 football. Its futile. We look forwards 90% of time instead of backwards. We normally look backwards to learn from our own mistakes but not for new innovations to drive us forwards. The universe dictate change, evolution and adaptation. But every generation will try to assure the current one of how things were much better in their old times etc. lol

Enough with your constant deflections.

I will ask again. If Ozil was as amazing, world class and had all those amazing stats you keep harping on about then why did Madrid get rid of him in his prime? (You keep dodging this question.). Stop wth the cognitive dissonance.

How come that it’s only Arsenal that came in for this so called world class player that could have walked into any team at the time? He couldn’t walk into that Madrid. (Address this point as well).

With such amazing stats that you seem to be obsessed with, how come he was stuck at Arsenal even when he ran down his contract? Not a single big club even tried to entice him away from Arsenal. We ended begging anyone to take him off our hands even if it meant giving him away for free and paying his wages if anyone could take him. That’s how desperate we were to get rid of this “All conquering Stats world class player that would hsve walked into any big team.. Even then, not a single serious club came in for him. Arsenal were willing to pay his wages as long as anyone was willing to take him off hands. Only the mighty Fenerbache came in and even they found out what a joker he was, so terminated his contract after less than a season. Then Istanbul were the last nail in your Boy Ozil’s coffin. They Terminated his contract as they too found out what a lazy entitled scrounger your boy Ozil was. So finally your boy got the message and retired as he kept exposing and embarrassing himself.. But but Ozil was world class and could have walked into any team back then. The delusions is captivating here.

Again. This is 2024 and football has evolved as it has always. One dimensional jokers like Ozil got exposed but his very loyal fanbase still refuses to accept it to this day.
As I noted. The modern top class managers prefer CB’s that have some footballing brain / intelligence and not just being wrecking rodes. They prefer ball playing Goal keepers. Attacking midfielders are expected to do more than just camping and hiding in the opposition area for the majority of each game. At least in these areas there is improvement. Right?

You need more than just talent to succeed in 2024. Having talent, being lazy and lacking work ethic will not be rewarded anymore in football.

That’s why the likes of Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc will not tolerate lazy one dimensionals like Ozil. They go for more dynamic and versatile players. And they clearly know more about football too because they played it and surely know about the old styles of the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, early 2000’s but they chose to not follow those old styles of play.. Isn’t it?
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:20 am

This is like when a baby lion is given a small animal to learn how to kill. He toys with it and plays with it then eventually the parent comes and kills the small animal.

I have zero interest debating this with you, its 2024 and you are here writing f***ing essays about Ozil, this has been done to death times 1000, its boring, you are boring. Bore off mate.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Mar 29, 2024 7:55 am

@maiso
Sorry dude, can’t really debate player analysis with someone who doesn’t use numbers and only watches. You have to have both or you have no basis to make your argument.

But opinions are fine. You think Mesut was lazy and i don’t.
As for Odegaard now, on balance i tend to agree we are better off vs having Ozil in this team now.
Whilst Odegaard can’t yet match Ozil levels in terms of creativity, he is more suited to Arteta’s system with the high press.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:28 am

jayramfootball wrote:@maiso
Sorry dude, can’t really debate player analysis with someone who doesn’t use numbers and only watches. You have to have both or you have no basis to make your argument.

But opinions are fine. You think Mesut was lazy and i don’t.
As for Odegaard now, on balance i tend to agree we are better off vs having Ozil in this team now.
Whilst Odegaard can’t yet match Ozil levels in terms of creativity, he is more suited to Arteta’s system with the high press.

Even the most brain dead dweeb should be able to understand this ... but watch Captain Shit For Brains come back with another pointless essay.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Rockape » Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:35 am

Tbf HH, he makes some very good points! As for stats Jay, I’ve said many times that I don’t need ANY stats to assess a player and his ability. I can do that all by myself, just watching him.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby MathyGooner » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:03 pm

Rockape wrote:Tbf HH, he makes some very good points! As for stats Jay, I’ve said many times that I don’t need ANY stats to assess a player and his ability. I can do that all by myself, just watching him.


You can but there are problems with it.

Firstly, eyes can deceive. Eye test for Saka this season would suggest he's been less productive. He's actually been MORE productive.

Secondly, it's purely subjective. My eye test tells me Oezil was lazy. Stats show he wasn't. Human observation is good at picking up on patterns and generalities, not exceptions, inducing biases. That means certain things we observe produce too strong of a signal. For example, players with languid body language we commonly associate with laziness. That's because it generally correlates. But there will always be exceptions like Oezil and Havertz. Our perceptions often don't recognise those exceptional cases well.

Stats are important to check your biases.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby swipe right » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:33 pm

MathyGooner wrote:
Rockape wrote:Tbf HH, he makes some very good points! As for stats Jay, I’ve said many times that I don’t need ANY stats to assess a player and his ability. I can do that all by myself, just watching him.


You can but there are problems with it.

Firstly, eyes can deceive. Eye test for Saka this season would suggest he's been less productive. He's actually been MORE productive.

Secondly, it's purely subjective. My eye test tells me Oezil was lazy. Stats show he wasn't. Human observation is good at picking up on patterns and generalities, not exceptions, inducing biases. That means certain things we observe produce too strong of a signal. For example, players with languid body language we commonly associate with laziness. That's because it generally correlates. But there will always be exceptions like Oezil and Havertz. Our perceptions often don't recognise those exceptional cases well.

Stats are important to check your biases.

That's right. Sometimes your lips say no, but your eyes say yes.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Ach » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:37 pm

swipe right wrote:
MathyGooner wrote:
Rockape wrote:Tbf HH, he makes some very good points! As for stats Jay, I’ve said many times that I don’t need ANY stats to assess a player and his ability. I can do that all by myself, just watching him.


You can but there are problems with it.

Firstly, eyes can deceive. Eye test for Saka this season would suggest he's been less productive. He's actually been MORE productive.

Secondly, it's purely subjective. My eye test tells me Oezil was lazy. Stats show he wasn't. Human observation is good at picking up on patterns and generalities, not exceptions, inducing biases. That means certain things we observe produce too strong of a signal. For example, players with languid body language we commonly associate with laziness. That's because it generally correlates. But there will always be exceptions like Oezil and Havertz. Our perceptions often don't recognise those exceptional cases well.

Stats are important to check your biases.

That's right. Sometimes your lips say no, but your eyes say yes.

Sounds like Mason Greenwood's defence
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Salibatelli » Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:41 pm

Problem with stats is they offer no context without watching the game.

Perfect example is Havertz pass against Man City, that counts as an assist but it’s not really, it’s just a pass backwards to the edge of the area and then an opportunistic shot by Martinelli which deflected in.

An assist is someone creating a chance, not just a pass that leads to a goal in real terms, but stats won’t record that.

Theres countless examples of stats showing something different to reality, for example Jesus being prolific, Nketiah somehow being a decent goalscorer etc etc

Quite often stats in isolation are plain wrong.

The other aspect is how involved a player is in chance creation, a player can be heavily involved in setting up a move but not make the final pass, they still created it in reality but there will be no record of their input.

There’s times that the assist creates the chance out of nothing and other times when it’s just a simple pass 5 yards across.

Which is why assist stats again won’t always paint an accurate picture, there’s too many variables they don’t consider.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:08 pm

Rockape wrote:Tbf HH, he makes some very good points! As for stats Jay, I’ve said many times that I don’t need ANY stats to assess a player and his ability. I can do that all by myself, just watching him.


No, you can't - not objectively.
If you are not using stats and watching for analysis purposes you don't have a full view.
No one can, which is why not even the professionals just watch a player anymore to judge them fully.

You get a partial view and that's fine if entertainment and a general view is what you are after.
That's not player analysis though.
Last edited by jayramfootball on Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby ag6789 » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:16 pm

Should always be a mixture of the two. Visual assessment complimented with math ( stats ) behind the performance. Scientific process.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Rockape » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:17 pm

So what did everyone do before these endless stats? Do Scouts looking for young talent rely on stats…..of course not! They use their brains!
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:21 pm

Rockape wrote:So what did everyone do before these endless stats? Do Scouts looking for young talent rely on stats…..of course not! They use their brains!


Yes, and they evolved to find a better way.
Even the scouting profession knew they didn't have all the info they really needed... and even back then they knew a whole lot more than a football fan watching 90 minutes following the ball and highlights on MOTD and youtube.

Watching kids playing and determining whether they stand out and could progress to academy level is very different. You don't need analysis for that - it's clear because you are drawing outliers from a sea of rubbish. But even when kids get into the academy they are assessed with numbers also these days.

I've said many times, it's A OK to watch football only and enjoy the sport, have your favourite players etc, but that is not player or football analysis. When it gets down to the level of comparing players as it has done in this discussion between Odegaard and Ozil, watching Odegaard today and remembering Ozil from years ago is no basis to do any comparison. It's just a very ill-informed view hampered by recency bias, opinion and personal preference/confirmation bias.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Ach » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:00 pm

You can tell who's the football fans and who's the gamers on here

Fifa/football manager fans go on stats
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