Martin Ødegaard (8)

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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby ag6789 » Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:54 pm

Yes, my father and my uncle ( all RIP) used to argue about Puskas, Hidekuti, Charlton, Bobby Moore, being far superior than the likes of Baggio, Van Baasten, Wright, Adams, etc during the 90s.
Different era different perspective.
Can't compare one w/ the other.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:54 pm

Well it is about better and worse. There is less individual skill on display in fooball now, but every team is better drilled, You can look at how well a Klopp Liverpol team play, even though they are not blessed with amazing players, the sum of the players was better than the individuals. Thats why its so much harder to beat the so-called lesser teams, because they are better drilled.

But to say the Brazil 1970 team wouldn't get anywhere near a winning a Wolrd cup is bare disrespect, because those teams used to play against teams that had less talent but sought other ways to stop them, usually kicking them to f**k. The cream ALWAYS rises to the top - any of those teams from 1970 to 2000 could easily win a World Cup now. nothing beat tekkers, sorry Jay. A skillful team will make a team of athletes run around all day chasing the ball.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:58 pm

ag6789 wrote:Yes, my father and my uncle ( all RIP) used to argue about Puskas, Hidekuti, Charlton, Bobby Moore, being far superior than the likes of Baggio, Van Baasten, Wright, Adams, etc during the 90s.
Different era different perspective.
Can't compare one w/ the other.

But you are talking about the best players to have ever played the game in both your father's era and the later era. All of those players are worthy of being called the best in the world. Apart from Ronaldo and Messi who are in the twilight of their career, who are the best players in the world now ?

Mbappe ....... and who ? You could choose from a dozen players who at any one time you can say was legitimately the best player in the world, now, who do you have to choose from, one player, Mbappe. Football is dead.
Last edited by theHotHead on Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:00 pm

Like him or hate him, John Terry was a bloody brillant CB, Tony Adams was too, some say Rio Ferdinand. Who in the Prem right now is up there with those 3 ?

Don't tell me VVD, the guy was overrated from the start and is nothing special.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby ag6789 » Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:24 pm

Maybe in a few years people will talk about Saliba/ GabbyM. The past always seem rosier.
The past generations ( my father's ) always thought football in general, in their era , was superior, not only the best players .
Also believed the Rod Levers, Emersons, Newcombes were better than Sampras, Agassi &Co.
Similarly, the likes of Peter May, Ted Dexter, Sobers, Statham, McKenzies far superior than
Gooch, Thorpe, Atherton, Hussain ,Waugh, Gough, etc.
People have fond memories of their youth in general . A time when you were more free spirited and energetic and bubbling with optimism.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:16 pm

Saliba and Gabby have a long way to go to be compared to the likes of Blanc, Desailly and Nesta. Not only that think about fullbacks of the past that were like offensive weapons. Apart from Alexander-Arnold what other full backs score a ton of goals ? Think back to Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Branco, Mihailovic, Jarni, they used to score goals regularly, especially from free kicks. Who takes free kicks now apart from Alexander-Arnold as as defender ?

Also look at tekkers, anyone can take free kicks with their instep, what about outside of the boot free kicks, when was the last time you saw ANYONE take one, let alone a defender ? Branco, Carlos, Mihailovic, Jarni - all of them used to do it and score. Look at Ronald Koeman, an absolute monster of a free kick, this was when ballers were proper ballers. And lets not talk about defenders needing to be ball players now, as if they were not before !! What do you know about Alan Hansen ? Andy Brehme, Costacurta, Maldini ? VVD cannot chat to ANY of them - he is overrated !!

Lets look at the Ballon D'or, the last time a defender finished top 3 was 2019, VVD. Before that you have to go all the way back to 2006 for Cannavaro.Then 2003 for Maldini, then 2002 Carlos, then 1996 Mathias Sammer (sweeper), then 1994 Maldini, then 1992 Mattheus (think he was a sweeper then).
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Salibatelli » Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:04 pm

theHotHead wrote:Like him or hate him, John Terry was a bloody brillant CB, Tony Adams was too, some say Rio Ferdinand. Who in the Prem right now is up there with those 3 ?

Don't tell me VVD, the guy was overrated from the start and is nothing special.


None of them, but to be fair they’re not allowed to tackle anymore, touch anyone and it’s a free kick, tackle them and it’s a booking.

Adams was legendary, Terry was brilliant too as much as I dislike him.

Stam and Campbell too were brilliant.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby MathyGooner » Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:09 pm

I don't think players are worse, I think the game is less individualistic now. As such, you won't see as much individual brilliance pulling a team through because a) players won't have the same individual freedom and b) as a consequence, less individual errors will occur leading to less individual recoveries that make you think "Wow, what a defender."

The game is just more tactical and structured now. Whether you like or dislike that is personal preference.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:17 pm

OK consider this, the boot and ball tech from 20 years ago is different to now, the ball is easier to bend now and lighter too.

Think about the long range shot from Seedorf for Real Madrid, he struck the ball, outside of the boot, the keeper followed the path of the ball and moved to the right side of his goal only for the ball to bend back to the middle of the goal. Absolutely incredible goal.

Think back to Le Tournoi, Roberto Carlos free kick, outside of the boot. When have you seen a player in the last 10 years strike a ball so outrageously ?

Where are the seriously skillful players ??? The ones that leave you mesmerised ?
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:51 pm

theHotHead wrote:I have no interest in debating this with a dweeb.

Yes I called you a name, booo hoooo. You are boring and can't argue. I want to be juvenile with you because thats what you deserve. Don't like it, f**k off then!

Man tells me he doesn't pay attention to stats and wants to argue points easily provable - and have been proved - by stats. Gtfoh.

I swear. And you were trying to make fun of me being a millennial when you argue like a 16 year old twitter warrior.

I will say it again. Stats on their own mean little. Like with this whole back and forth. It clearly shows that even with all these amazing Ozil stats you keep harping about they did not save him. Hence why he dropped from a title winning and CL challenging club like Madrid to a 4th place struggler club like Arsenal. You can get triggered all you like but that won’t change the FACT that Stats on their own mean nothing.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby ag6789 » Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:08 pm

Once again, Ozil's stats at Arsenal is average. He had two good years 3 average and the 6th one was downright bad. His career took the path exactly commensurable with his declining performance.
slowly petered out into oblivion. Going going gone.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:24 pm

Maiso wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I have no interest in debating this with a dweeb.

Yes I called you a name, booo hoooo. You are boring and can't argue. I want to be juvenile with you because thats what you deserve. Don't like it, f**k off then!

Man tells me he doesn't pay attention to stats and wants to argue points easily provable - and have been proved - by stats. Gtfoh.

I swear. And you were trying to make fun of me being a millennial when you argue like a 16 year old twitter warrior.

I will say it again. Stats on their own mean little. Like with this whole back and forth. It clearly shows that even with all these amazing Ozil stats you keep harping about they did not save him. Hence why he dropped from a title winning and CL challenging club like Madrid to a 4th place struggler club like Arsenal. You can get triggered all you like but that won’t change the FACT that Stats on their own mean nothing.
Smh



Maiso that isn't what you said initially, though.
You said stats mean nothing and you watch only.
I agree that stats on their own can be really misleading, but probably not as misleading as just watching alone and ignoring stats.
If you do the latter and consider whether Ozil as chasing back a lot and making tackles, you come to the false conclusion that Ozil was lazy, for example.

For me, I have rarely seen a player as creative as Ozil , who could spot and perfectly execute a pass to open up defences either directly to create chances or indirectly as part of a move. I think his last 2 seasons were a bit of a disaster TBH and he was certainly on the decline, but too many seem to judge him on the recency of watching him - i.e. those last 2 years.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:31 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Maiso wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I have no interest in debating this with a dweeb.

Yes I called you a name, booo hoooo. You are boring and can't argue. I want to be juvenile with you because thats what you deserve. Don't like it, f**k off then!

Man tells me he doesn't pay attention to stats and wants to argue points easily provable - and have been proved - by stats. Gtfoh.

I swear. And you were trying to make fun of me being a millennial when you argue like a 16 year old twitter warrior.

I will say it again. Stats on their own mean little. Like with this whole back and forth. It clearly shows that even with all these amazing Ozil stats you keep harping about they did not save him. Hence why he dropped from a title winning and CL challenging club like Madrid to a 4th place struggler club like Arsenal. You can get triggered all you like but that won’t change the FACT that Stats on their own mean nothing.
Smh



Maiso that isn't what you said initially, though.
You said stats mean nothing and you watch only.
I agree that stats on their own can be really misleading, but probably not as misleading as just watching alone and ignoring stats.
If you do the latter and consider whether Ozil as chasing back a lot and making tackles, you come to the false conclusion that Ozil was lazy, for example.

For me, I have rarely seen a player as creative as Ozil , who could spot and perfectly execute a pass to open up defences either directly to create chances or indirectly as part of a move. I think his last 2 seasons were a bit of a disaster TBH and he was certainly on the decline, but too many seem to judge him on the recency of watching him - i.e. those last 2 years.


That’s my whole point. I have said it clearly that I don’t take out of context stats on their own seriously. That’s why I mentioned my four criteria about what I rate in an attacking midfielder:1) They should be creative (Assists). 2) They should be a goal threat. 3) They should be able to dominate / control the opposition. 4) They should have a bit of fight or grit / pressing from the front etc..
I need more than these padded up computer generated stats. The game is more than just waiting for a computer to help shape ones narrative about any given aspect of the game. We can usw stats as just s supplement or complement. I started watching football in the early 90’s when I was a young boy. And how did I make my own conclusions about any given player back then when some of these ridiculous stats were not available? How did people in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and early 2000’s rate players before these out of context Stats being thrown about everyday were not available or been invented yet?

Can you or anyone please present to me each of Bergkamp, Pires, Vieira, Thiery Henry’s chances created stat? What about their “Shots per game, expected goals. Their distance covered. Their short burst per minute stats. The times they were voted fans favourites etc”.

We did not have a lot of this stuff back in their days. But how did we conclude that they were good and amazing players?

Does anyone need stats to know that Rice, Odegaard, Saka, Partey, Saliba, Gabriel, Jorginho, White, Raya etc have been good for us? Or you just need to watch them play enough games for us for you to conclude that they are good players?

I do think that people have gotten too lazy by focusing more on some really irrelevant stats instead of just watching football and deciding.
It used to be “Watch the game and performances, then look up stats to complement what you have just witnessed”.
But in the last 10 or so years some people seem to have flipped that. Now it’s just “Ignore what you just witnessed with your own eyes and go with what the objective computer compiles for you at the end of the game”.

I don’t buy that, have never bought it and will never buy that buy it. Sorry.

It the same with the Arteta debate. People were more / are more focused on stats (He finished 8th two seasons in a row. He bottled top 4. He bottled the title blah blah).
But with me it was always about watching with my own eyes the progress, performances, how he was setting up his team. The style of football. The type of player he was buying. How he interacted with his squad and fans. Bringing back that sense of togetherness at the club etc”. And I kept seeing this stuff even if it was disjointed a lot of time due to his inexperience and the rubbish squad he had inherited. But you could see what he was trying to do. A lot of surface level fans did not care about that and were more worried about league position even if there were so many mitigating factors back then.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:16 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Maiso wrote:@hothead.
And about Giroud and Adebayor vs Welbeck.
I have always rated Giroud and Adebayor highly. Why? Because those guys weren’t just goal scorers, they were team players that did more than standing / waiting in the opposition area. And It was your fellow Ozil apologists that used to blame Giroud for Your Boy’s constant poor showings. You know, labelling him as a Donkey, a Lamppost, an average mid table / Championship level player that was making our Prince Ozil look poor, weak and bad. Remember those types of excuses of Scapegoating Giroud and other players for Ozil consistently being exposed as a one dimensional player in the EPL? So don’t even try, I was always defending Giroud from your type (the Ozil worshippers).

I am convinced you are not an Arsenal fan !!! I am convinced you never watched Arsenal play.

Adebayor was lazy, he was offside more than Bendtner and thats saying something !! As for being a team player, how ? Adebayor's link up play was terrible. Giroud was static which was everyone's complaint about him and do I need to remind you of the 801 mins he went without scoring a goal for Arsenal ? He went 15 appearances in the 2015/16 season without scoring a goal for Arsenal .... but but but ... Ozil apologists :rofll:

So I am correct once again. You seem to be one those Ozil apologists that used to scapegoat Giroud for Ozil being exposed as an overhyped joker at Arsenal. And so in those 15 appearances or 801 minutes that Giroud did not score, what did our world class genius (Ozil) that could have walked into any team at that time do for us in that samw period?? How many goals did he score or how many assists did he provide to all his other teammates? Can’t I flip it the other way and say that Ozil failed to provide good goal scoring passes to Giroud?
And did you know that your own Boy (Ozil) himself stank out the second half of that season too? He had a poor 2016/17 season too. So that first half of 2015/16 season ended up as just an anomaly. He never came anywhere near anything like that in any other season in his Arsenal career. Right?

Moving on.. So just because I refuse to buy your fallacious / ridiculous talking points then that means I am not an Arsenal fan? Lol

And I will not bite on the Adebayor deflection for now as that will take us to yet another rabbit hole like you keep trying to lead me all the time. I know you love to throw in as many deflective points without addressing the pertinent elephant in the room.
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Re: Martin Ødegaard (8)

Postby Maiso » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:32 pm

@jay.
But Ozil was lazy. This clearly shows why stats are so misleading. I remember even back then some stat came out showing Ozil worked harder / covered more distance than Alexis sanchez. Some people will try to assure me that Ozil was a more hardworking player than Sanchez because the computer generated stats said so. Isn’t?

If he was as hardworking as you seem to say then how come that Mourinho called him out on at Madrid? Why did Emery complain about Ozil’s laziness? Why did Ljumberg? Why did Arteta? Why did Fenerbache? Why did İstanbul Başakşehir etc all came to the same conclusions?

Guys. Explain this to me.
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