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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:20 pm
by aniym
Yesterday he he was forced to field a squad without Partey and Elneny, and looked lost. Leeds should have scored 3 minimum with all the crossbar/post chances they had. Partey and Elneny not only help prevent those chances from forming, but are also smarter in their passing than Xhaka or Ceballos.

This is the reality of the job. Most managers never have their preferred XI all fit and ready at the same time. Arteta is coming from City, where their second XI could make the PL Top 6.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:59 pm
by Power n Glory
Arteta has bought the Ozil situation on himself. I don't think it's the clubs instructions because Sokratis is in the same boat and it's almost the same situation with Saliba. He's chosen to freeze these players out for some reason and it's starting to look bad.

Not sure what he's trying achieve tactically anymore. He moved away from playing a 4-2-3-1 when our most impressive display was against Man Utd where we won 2-0. AMN had a stand out performance playing as an inverted wingback, Pepe had a man of the match performance and we just had more of threat down the right with Ozil, AMN and Pepe working in a similar way to how Saka, Tierny and Auba worked on the opposite flank.

I don't know why he's abandoned that set up even without Ozil if he wants to return to a 4-2-3-1. Just play Ceballos in that role to connect AMN and Pepe on the right.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:05 pm
by Phil71
Power n Glory wrote:Arteta has bought the Ozil situation on himself. I don't think it's the clubs instructions because Sokratis is in the same boat and it's almost the same situation with Saliba. He's chosen to freeze these players out for some reason and it's starting to look bad.

Not sure what he's trying achieve tactically anymore. He moved away from playing a 4-2-3-1 when our most impressive display was against Man Utd where we won 2-0. AMN had a stand out performance playing as an inverted wingback, Pepe had a man of the match performance and we just had more of threat down the right with Ozil, AMN and Pepe working in a similar way to how Saka, Tierny and Auba worked on the opposite flank.

I don't know why he's abandoned that set up even without Ozil if he wants to return to a 4-2-3-1. Just play Ceballos in that role to connect AMN and Pepe on the right.


I don't believe for one minute that it's down to him.

What manager in their right mind would completely exclude players from his selection? If you want to drop them for whatever reason fine. But it would be madness for a football manager to deliberately reduce the number of players he can choose from.

There is more to this than we know, and he is toeing the club line - same as Wenger did.

I think these players - especially Ozil and Sokratis - have significant pay as you play clauses in theior contracts, and Arteta has been given the choice of playing them and reducing his playing budget, or not playing them and getting the additional funds - like for Partey and Gabriel.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:21 pm
by Jedi
gooney wrote:
Rockape wrote:Let’s face it, Arteta was a gamble which looked like it had paid off when we won the FA Cup and have looked so much more coherent in defence this season.

Now he has serious work to do to get the team firing and deserves some time to achieve that. However, if there’s no improvement by the end of the year, then we need to look elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would give him until end of the year and it’s not even about result. If he can’t show improvement in our attacking play. He needs to go. We could have stolen the Leeds game if saka scored. But would that change anything? There are serious problems which shows unless something changes we will fail guaranteed.

Do you think a different manager could do better with this current roster? I don't think so.

I don't think the coaching or the tactics are the problem here. I think It's the recruitment, which has been awful for a couple of years. Since Wenger left, we've lost Wilshere, Cazorla, Ramsey, Ozil, Mkhitaryan. That's 5 offensive minded creative midfielders. Who did we replace them with? Ceballos? And Besiktas reject Elnenny?

This squad doesn't have a single creative midfielder that's top 4 quality. How could you expect anything other than what we're seeing right now?

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:26 pm
by jayramfootball
Jedi wrote:
gooney wrote:
Rockape wrote:Let’s face it, Arteta was a gamble which looked like it had paid off when we won the FA Cup and have looked so much more coherent in defence this season.

Now he has serious work to do to get the team firing and deserves some time to achieve that. However, if there’s no improvement by the end of the year, then we need to look elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would give him until end of the year and it’s not even about result. If he can’t show improvement in our attacking play. He needs to go. We could have stolen the Leeds game if saka scored. But would that change anything? There are serious problems which shows unless something changes we will fail guaranteed.

Do you think a different manager could do better with this current roster?


Yes. Easily.
It's not just the formation and tactics that Arteta is making a mess of. His team selections are appalling.
PLaying Willock as a CAM is one of the dumbest moves yet.
We're not flush with talent, but it is obvious that Ceballos is our most creative player in the squad right now, yet he's playing a defensive role alongside Xhaka and spending his time playing sideways and backwards. He should have been given more forward responsibility. He's not a DM. If Arteta REALLY wanted to play Willock he should have asked him to play a holding role.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:28 pm
by Ach
aniym wrote:Yesterday he he was forced to field a squad without Partey and Elneny, and looked lost. Leeds should have scored 3 minimum with all the crossbar/post chances they had. Partey and Elneny not only help prevent those chances from forming, but are also smarter in their passing than Xhaka or Ceballos.

This is the reality of the job. Most managers never have their preferred XI all fit and ready at the same time. Arteta is coming from City, where their second XI could make the PL Top 6.

Both played v villa and we were humiliated. Elneny has never been good enough and jury very much out on Partey

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:31 pm
by Rockape
I agree with the comment about the current toster, which is why Partey is such an important player for us and we need him to step up, once recovered.

It’s difficult for the average fan to understand the tiny differences that define good and bad performances, especially when you’re only judging your own team and not the performance of the oppo. It seems to me that a lot of PL teams have caught up with the required fitness levels to play a pressing game and are technically good enough to retain possession when they have it.

Remember, when it was only Arsenal who played the short passing game, but now it seems we are one of the teams least able to do it? It seems (to me) that it’s only when our wing backs make a decision to attack, that we look threatening, because our play through the middle is just snuffed out by almost every PL team we play against.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:32 pm
by Power n Glory
Phil71 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Arteta has bought the Ozil situation on himself. I don't think it's the clubs instructions because Sokratis is in the same boat and it's almost the same situation with Saliba. He's chosen to freeze these players out for some reason and it's starting to look bad.

Not sure what he's trying achieve tactically anymore. He moved away from playing a 4-2-3-1 when our most impressive display was against Man Utd where we won 2-0. AMN had a stand out performance playing as an inverted wingback, Pepe had a man of the match performance and we just had more of threat down the right with Ozil, AMN and Pepe working in a similar way to how Saka, Tierny and Auba worked on the opposite flank.

I don't know why he's abandoned that set up even without Ozil if he wants to return to a 4-2-3-1. Just play Ceballos in that role to connect AMN and Pepe on the right.


I don't believe for one minute that it's down to him.

What manager in their right mind would completely exclude players from his selection? If you want to drop them for whatever reason fine. But it would be madness for a football manager to deliberately reduce the number of players he can choose from.

There is more to this than we know, and he is toeing the club line - same as Wenger did.

I think these players - especially Ozil and Sokratis - have significant pay as you play clauses in theior contracts, and Arteta has been given the choice of playing them and reducing his playing budget, or not playing them and getting the additional funds - like for Partey and Gabriel.


You believe that but it doesn't make sense for him to exclude Saliba as well as Sokratis and Ozil. What possible savings could we be making when we've spent money on players like Pablo Mari, Cedric and Willian?

Ljunberg was on Sky Sports and only just recently left the club and was there when Ozil was frozen out. He said Arteta should play Ozil for certain games because he has the quality but it's ultimately the coaches decision. Surely he'd have not said that if something else was going on? Wenger came out and said the same recently. These are people with close ties to the club and I don't believe they'd throw Arteta under the bus like that if they felt something deeper was going on and beyond the managers control.

Also, tactically, if he wanted to play with a 10 he could try to play another player in that position but instead he's opted to play without a 10. That says a lot about how he sees the game.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:36 pm
by Dejan
Jedi wrote:
gooney wrote:
Rockape wrote:Let’s face it, Arteta was a gamble which looked like it had paid off when we won the FA Cup and have looked so much more coherent in defence this season.

Now he has serious work to do to get the team firing and deserves some time to achieve that. However, if there’s no improvement by the end of the year, then we need to look elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would give him until end of the year and it’s not even about result. If he can’t show improvement in our attacking play. He needs to go. We could have stolen the Leeds game if saka scored. But would that change anything? There are serious problems which shows unless something changes we will fail guaranteed.

Do you think a different manager could do better with this current roster? I don't think so.

I don't think the coaching or the tactics are the problem here. I think It's the recruitment, which has been awful for a couple of years. Since Wenger left, we've lost Wilshere, Cazorla, Ramsey, Ozil, Mkhitaryan. That's 5 offensive minded creative midfielders. Who did we replace them with? Ceballos? And Besiktas reject Elnenny?

This squad doesn't have a single creative midfielder that's top 4 quality. How could you expect anything other than what we're seeing right now?


Yes. Alot better aswell.
Wolves, crystal palace, westham, aston villa and southampton are above us ffs. You think they have a better team then us?

We have a -1 goal difference ffs

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:43 pm
by Phil71
Power n Glory wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Arteta has bought the Ozil situation on himself. I don't think it's the clubs instructions because Sokratis is in the same boat and it's almost the same situation with Saliba. He's chosen to freeze these players out for some reason and it's starting to look bad.

Not sure what he's trying achieve tactically anymore. He moved away from playing a 4-2-3-1 when our most impressive display was against Man Utd where we won 2-0. AMN had a stand out performance playing as an inverted wingback, Pepe had a man of the match performance and we just had more of threat down the right with Ozil, AMN and Pepe working in a similar way to how Saka, Tierny and Auba worked on the opposite flank.

I don't know why he's abandoned that set up even without Ozil if he wants to return to a 4-2-3-1. Just play Ceballos in that role to connect AMN and Pepe on the right.


I don't believe for one minute that it's down to him.

What manager in their right mind would completely exclude players from his selection? If you want to drop them for whatever reason fine. But it would be madness for a football manager to deliberately reduce the number of players he can choose from.

There is more to this than we know, and he is toeing the club line - same as Wenger did.

I think these players - especially Ozil and Sokratis - have significant pay as you play clauses in theior contracts, and Arteta has been given the choice of playing them and reducing his playing budget, or not playing them and getting the additional funds - like for Partey and Gabriel.


You believe that but it doesn't make sense for him to exclude Saliba as well as Sokratis and Ozil. What possible savings could we be making when we've spent money on players like Pablo Mari, Cedric and Willian?

Ljunberg was on Sky Sports and only just recently left the club and was there when Ozil was frozen out. He said Arteta should play Ozil for certain games because he has the quality but it's ultimately the coaches decision. Surely he'd have not said that if something else was going on? Wenger came out and said the same recently. These are people with close ties to the club and I don't believe they'd throw Arteta under the bus like that if they felt something deeper was going on and beyond the managers control.

Also, tactically, if he wanted to play with a 10 he could try to play another player in that position but instead he's opted to play without a 10. That says a lot about how he sees the game.


In my opinion it's probably about budget.

You have £1.1m a week to spend on wages. If player x doesn't play he loses £100k a week. If you don't play him you can have that £100k a week for a new player's wages. Andy by the way we don't want you to play him because we want to get shot of him.

Yes sir.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:53 pm
by Wenger's Coat
I was sceptical when Arteta was appointed. I thought the appointment of a rookie manager showed a lack of ambition by the club. I also thought betting on Arteta turning out to be the next Pep was too risky a bet for a club that was already struggling. We are not in a place where we can afford to serve as a training case study for a novice manager.

However, I was willing to give Arteta a chance.

The FA Cup win and some of the performances were encouraging. But overall I don’t feel there has been a huge improvement over Emery/sunset Wenger. Some things got a bit better. Other things seem to have gotten a bit worse. The latest few disappointing results don’t feel to me as though they are massively off-trend as a whole.

I’d give Mikel this season. If the end result is reasonable (i.e., top 6 and a discernible improvement in overall team performance), I’d also give him the next season too. If 2021/22 does not see us back in top 4, I’d get rid.

The only exceptions to this are:

(a) If we look like getting dragged into a relegation fight. In which case, bring on Big Sam. [emoji33]

or

(b) If a truly exceptional candidate becomes available. E.g., if all of a sudden Klopp is sacked and declares his secret love for the Gunners then Arteta should be sacked immediately.

Otherwise, absent relegation threat or a seriously superior manager becoming available, I see no point chopping and changing mid-season.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:04 pm
by Power n Glory
Phil71 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Arteta has bought the Ozil situation on himself. I don't think it's the clubs instructions because Sokratis is in the same boat and it's almost the same situation with Saliba. He's chosen to freeze these players out for some reason and it's starting to look bad.

Not sure what he's trying achieve tactically anymore. He moved away from playing a 4-2-3-1 when our most impressive display was against Man Utd where we won 2-0. AMN had a stand out performance playing as an inverted wingback, Pepe had a man of the match performance and we just had more of threat down the right with Ozil, AMN and Pepe working in a similar way to how Saka, Tierny and Auba worked on the opposite flank.

I don't know why he's abandoned that set up even without Ozil if he wants to return to a 4-2-3-1. Just play Ceballos in that role to connect AMN and Pepe on the right.


I don't believe for one minute that it's down to him.

What manager in their right mind would completely exclude players from his selection? If you want to drop them for whatever reason fine. But it would be madness for a football manager to deliberately reduce the number of players he can choose from.

There is more to this than we know, and he is toeing the club line - same as Wenger did.

I think these players - especially Ozil and Sokratis - have significant pay as you play clauses in theior contracts, and Arteta has been given the choice of playing them and reducing his playing budget, or not playing them and getting the additional funds - like for Partey and Gabriel.


You believe that but it doesn't make sense for him to exclude Saliba as well as Sokratis and Ozil. What possible savings could we be making when we've spent money on players like Pablo Mari, Cedric and Willian?

Ljunberg was on Sky Sports and only just recently left the club and was there when Ozil was frozen out. He said Arteta should play Ozil for certain games because he has the quality but it's ultimately the coaches decision. Surely he'd have not said that if something else was going on? Wenger came out and said the same recently. These are people with close ties to the club and I don't believe they'd throw Arteta under the bus like that if they felt something deeper was going on and beyond the managers control.

Also, tactically, if he wanted to play with a 10 he could try to play another player in that position but instead he's opted to play without a 10. That says a lot about how he sees the game.


In my opinion it's probably about budget.

You have £1.1m a week to spend on wages. If player x doesn't play he loses £100k a week. If you don't play him you can have that £100k a week for a new player's wages. Andy by the way we don't want you to play him because we want to get shot of him.

Yes sir.


There is no evidence to back that up and if it were the case and the manager actually rated these players then surely he searched for an alternative solution. If it's about budgeting then explain why we're offering Mustafi a new contract and wasting money on players that aren't playing?

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:10 pm
by gooney
Jedi wrote:
gooney wrote:
Rockape wrote:Let’s face it, Arteta was a gamble which looked like it had paid off when we won the FA Cup and have looked so much more coherent in defence this season.

Now he has serious work to do to get the team firing and deserves some time to achieve that. However, if there’s no improvement by the end of the year, then we need to look elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would give him until end of the year and it’s not even about result. If he can’t show improvement in our attacking play. He needs to go. We could have stolen the Leeds game if saka scored. But would that change anything? There are serious problems which shows unless something changes we will fail guaranteed.

Do you think a different manager could do better with this current roster? I don't think so.

I don't think the coaching or the tactics are the problem here. I think It's the recruitment, which has been awful for a couple of years. Since Wenger left, we've lost Wilshere, Cazorla, Ramsey, Ozil, Mkhitaryan. That's 5 offensive minded creative midfielders. Who did we replace them with? Ceballos? And Besiktas reject Elnenny?

This squad doesn't have a single creative midfielder that's top 4 quality. How could you expect anything other than what we're seeing right now?

I think it’s very hard to find a manager who would do worse tbh. We went from a guy who couldn’t speak English and communicate with the players to one with zero experience. So yes it’s like we actively sought after who could do worse. I think your average standard manager could easily do better than him. And the fa cup was pure luck. When you have 29% possession and 4 shots all game and score two while opponents has 71% and 16 shots. You rode your luck

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:13 pm
by Power n Glory
Jedi wrote:
gooney wrote:
Rockape wrote:Let’s face it, Arteta was a gamble which looked like it had paid off when we won the FA Cup and have looked so much more coherent in defence this season.

Now he has serious work to do to get the team firing and deserves some time to achieve that. However, if there’s no improvement by the end of the year, then we need to look elsewhere.

I agree with this. I would give him until end of the year and it’s not even about result. If he can’t show improvement in our attacking play. He needs to go. We could have stolen the Leeds game if saka scored. But would that change anything? There are serious problems which shows unless something changes we will fail guaranteed.

Do you think a different manager could do better with this current roster? I don't think so.

I don't think the coaching or the tactics are the problem here. I think It's the recruitment, which has been awful for a couple of years. Since Wenger left, we've lost Wilshere, Cazorla, Ramsey, Ozil, Mkhitaryan. That's 5 offensive minded creative midfielders. Who did we replace them with? Ceballos? And Besiktas reject Elnenny?

This squad doesn't have a single creative midfielder that's top 4 quality. How could you expect anything other than what we're seeing right now?


Arteta has never managed before. We set the bar pretty low on this one. They may not be everyone's cup of tea but I believe Ancelotti, Mourinho or Rodgers would have gotten something more out of this team. It's not as if Arteta hasn't had two transfer windows either. The players he's vouched for have been garbage.

Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:16 pm
by gooney
He vouched for Mari, cedric and Willian. He can anyone defend this?