Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Angelito » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:32 pm

On the squad strength, Emery's first line-up against City was:

Cech
Bellerin - Mustafi - Sokratis - Niles
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Ozil - Ramsey - Mkhi
Auba


Arteta's line up against Bournemouth was:

Leno
Niles - Sokratis - Luiz - Saka
Torreira - Xhaka
Nelson - Ozil - Auba
Lacazette


Post-lockdown, which is more reflective of Arteta's vision, his line-up was:

Leno
Bellerin - Mustafi - Mari - Tierney
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Saka - Willock - Auba
Nketiah


Interestingly, Wenger's final team selection:

Ospina
Bellerin - Holding - Mustafi - Kolasinac
Ramsey - Xhaka
Iwobi - Mkhitaryan - Auba
Lacazette


Make what you want to from these line-ups. Xhaka and Auba are the only constants. Leno wasn't around when Wenger was here.


theHotHead wrote:Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.


It's the Pep way. He has his set of non-negotiables. But Pep has only managed world class teams/players in his career. He goes out of his way to spend astronomical money on players who can execute his vision.

Wenger was rigid in a similar vein, yet he managed to get the best out of inferior players even if they weren't right for Wengerball. Those link-up plays between Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Wilshere, Rozza, Giroud, etc., were some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we saw in the Prem last decade.

Look at someone like Podolski. He was a second striker who was direct. Yet, he outperformed Cazorla in his first season statistically. His return in 12/13 was better than Pepe's return in his first season, better than Laca's stats since he's been here, and will be better, presumably, than Willian's this season. That was with Pod predominantly playing on the left. He scored 16 goals and assisted a further 12 goals. Even in 13/14, he scored 12 goals and provided 5 assists.

We can't have a negative GD and talk about how Arteta has shored up our defense. Arteta's problem is that he's too van Gaal-esque and wants players to actualize those training rehearsals on matchday—leaving little room for expansive or inventiveness.


swipe right wrote:Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.


While the fans will turn on him, if this continues, I don't think his job is in any sort of threat unless we end up 15th or something. Even if Arsenal were to sack him, that would be at the end of the season.

Like Gazidis ran away the moment Wenger left, Edu knows that his job would be in threat if Arteta fails. So, after Arteta, if we still continue to be lol-worthy, Edu will be booted off.

As long as we finish in the top-10, Arteta stays until the start of next season.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Interest: waning » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 pm

Angelito wrote:On the squad strength, Emery's first line-up against City was:

Cech
Bellerin - Mustafi - Sokratis - Niles
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Ozil - Ramsey - Mkhi
Auba


Arteta's line up against Bournemouth was:

Leno
Niles - Sokratis - Luiz - Saka
Torreira - Xhaka
Nelson - Ozil - Auba
Lacazette


Post-lockdown, which is more reflective of Arteta's vision, his line-up was:

Leno
Bellerin - Mustafi - Mari - Tierney
Guendouzi - Xhaka
Saka - Willock - Auba
Nketiah


Interestingly, Wenger's final team selection:

Ospina
Bellerin - Holding - Mustafi - Kolasinac
Ramsey - Xhaka
Iwobi - Mkhitaryan - Auba
Lacazette


Make what you want to from these line-ups. Xhaka and Auba are the only constants. Leno wasn't around when Wenger was here.


theHotHead wrote:Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.


It's the Pep way. He has his set of non-negotiables. But Pep has only managed world class teams/players in his career. He goes out of his way to spend astronomical money on players who can execute his vision.

Wenger was rigid in a similar vein, yet he managed to get the best out of inferior players even if they weren't right for Wengerball. Those link-up plays between Ozil, Cazorla, Alexis, Wilshere, Rozza, Giroud, etc., were some of the most aesthetically pleasing football we saw in the Prem last decade.

Look at someone like Podolski. He was a second striker who was direct. Yet, he outperformed Cazorla in his first season statistically. His return in 12/13 was better than Pepe's return in his first season, better than Laca's stats since he's been here, and will be better, presumably, than Willian's this season. That was with Pod predominantly playing on the left. He scored 16 goals and assisted a further 12 goals. Even in 13/14, he scored 12 goals and provided 5 assists.

We can't have a negative GD and talk about how Arteta has shored up our defense. Arteta's problem is that he's too van Gaal-esque and wants players to actualize those training rehearsals on matchday—leaving little room for expansive or inventiveness.


swipe right wrote:Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.


While the fans will turn on him, if this continues, I don't think his job is in any sort of threat unless we end up 15th or something. Even if Arsenal were to sack him, that would be at the end of the season.

Like Gazidis ran away the moment Wenger left, Edu knows that his job would be in threat if Arteta fails. So, after Arteta, if we still continue to be lol-worthy, Edu will be booted off.

As long as we finish in the top-10, Arteta stays until the start of next season.
Why would Edu be under threat?

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Özim » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:08 am

The more I see of him and of his decisions the more I think we should cut this experiment short, it’s just not working, he’s got the stubborn seemingly illogical streak that leads him to make basic mistakes with players and tactics, we had enough of that with Wenger.

I think we’ve seen what his style is, defensive all the way trying to scrape results and it’s not what I want to see personally.

He was unproven so we didn’t know what we were getting, think we know now and he’s not the answer, maybe we should look for another manager so he’s ready to come in and replace him immediately IMO.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Angelito » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:10 pm

Interest: waning wrote:Why would Edu be under threat?

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Because he's the footballing head at Arsenal. Every decision goes through him. Unlike in the Wenger years, at least until 2015, Wenger was both the Manager and the Director of Football. Today, Arteta is the Manager and Edu is the DoF.

Edu was part of the team that hired Arteta. If Arteta fails, sure, he gets to hire another manager in consultation with Josh Kroenke. If that manager/coach fails, Edu's job will be on the line. He wouldn't want that.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby ag6789 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:27 pm

No manager has a crystal ball in their hands. A manager who has been with a group of players for a long time like Wenger, will have a better understanding of what works and what doesn't. A new manager like Arteta doesn't have the prior knowledge of the inner workings of all the players. So his only option is trial and error. If your club have fabulous sums to throw around, you're in luck, otherwise you have to suffer the growing pains.
You're lucky if your club fans and followers are patient and understanding if not you get the boot. Very harsh environment out there.
Arteta has an unbalanced outfit in his hands. Also, players are inconsistent, and some are developing. So he has to do some permutation and combinations as the same recipe doesn't work everywhere. I'm afraid we will see yo-yo performances for a while until things settle down. It might take most of this season or it might just click- no guarantees. People on this site started to yearn for Carlo the Great, this season, but boom- 3 straight defeats. Grass isn't greener on the other side either!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:24 am

That should have been done last season, this season we are supposed to see development, we have gone backwards
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:13 am

People are being too hard on Arteta.

Its not easy being a Football manager and getting a win every game.

I think he has many of the right attributes but he needs to start settling on a way of playing, if he keeps bouncing from formation to formation after every bad result he'll never stop.

I don't care if he continues with the 3-4-3 just put Auba down the middle for starters and get the wide players to start delivering the creativity.

Just fix the holes and as for Aston Villa, god knows what that was from the players, that was not the same team that beat Utd, the whole team came out for the Villa game like they were on holiday, one of the rare games where even Tierney looked crap.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:47 am

Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Mustafi » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:21 am

I do think that Martinelli returning and maybe signing Szoboszlai in January (thia seems to be a real possibility) Arteta could have a much better team attacking wise.

I Iike that you could see his vision on the pitch. The players know what they need to do (unlike in Emerys times).

His team selection (sticking with Willian, not playing Martinelli when he was fit) and his man management (Saliba and Özil) are not on the level required. It reminds me of Wengers stubbornness. I hope he can work and improve on it.

Beginning from January the team which I want to see:

Martinelli - Auba - Pepe
Szoboszlai*- Partey - Saka
Tierney - Gabriel - Chambers/Luiz - Bellerin
Leno


*If not signed then Smith-Rowe

I think this team is capable of scoring goals compared to the ones we are playing now.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby starmandb » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:51 am

swipe right wrote:Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?

Would you have sacked Herbert chapman and Bertie mee for finishing lower
Before winning a league and a double the following year?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Özim » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:20 am

starmandb wrote:
swipe right wrote:Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?

Would you have sacked Herbert chapman and Bertie mee for finishing lower
Before winning a league and a double the following year?


There’s always anomalies, this guy has zero experience and isn’t going to be anything special, he’s all hype like most things in football these days.

His man management is terrible, favouritism il-advised, style boring and tactics one dimensional, he won’t even give certain players a chance.

We finished low in the table last season with him, we’re 11th now, that’s terrible given the resources he has at his disposal.

He was a bang average player for us and now he’s a bang average manager as well!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Power n Glory » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:41 am

Özim wrote:
starmandb wrote:
swipe right wrote:Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?

Would you have sacked Herbert chapman and Bertie mee for finishing lower
Before winning a league and a double the following year?


There’s always anomalies, this guy has zero experience and isn’t going to be anything special, he’s all hype like most things in football these days.

His man management is terrible, favouritism il-advised, style boring and tactics one dimensional, he won’t even give certain players a chance.

We finished low in the table last season with him, we’re 11th now, that’s terrible given the resources he has at his disposal.

He was a bang average player for us and now he’s a bang average manager as well!


Tell us how you really feel? :biggrin:

The next few games are crucial. We need to bounce back It doesn't sound like Arteta will change much in terms of tactics so if we won't see a massive change in tactics we need to see a massive improvement in performance and effectiveness.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:07 am

starmandb wrote:
swipe right wrote:Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?

Would you have sacked Herbert chapman and Bertie mee for finishing lower
Before winning a league and a double the following year?

Bertie Mee got a name made for AFTV.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby EliteKiller » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:18 am

Power n Glory wrote:The next few games are crucial. We need to bounce back It doesn't sound like Arteta will change much in terms of tactics so if we won't see a massive change in tactics we need to see a massive improvement in performance and effectiveness.


The end of the season will be the measuring stick - Arteta was appointed just a month after Mourinho - we spent net 64m last summer compared to Mourinho 97m (but 32m of that was for LoCelso the previous summer) .... so broadly the same investment

If Mourinho ends up a long way in front, and heaven forbid winning a trophy, can Arteta survive if we don't? Maybe he will get another season who knows what Stan will put up with ... but I'm pretty sure our fickle fans will be baying for blood, they've got form.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby starmandb » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:30 am

swipe right wrote:
starmandb wrote:
swipe right wrote:Would you accept finishing the season in 11th place?

Would you have sacked Herbert chapman and Bertie mee for finishing lower
Before winning a league and a double the following year?

Bertie Mee got a name made for AFTV.

I’m sorry
I don’t know what that means
Bertie mee had been the club physio
Had no managerial experience
Finished 4th 7th 9th 12th in his first 4 seasons
But the fairs cup win was our first trophy in 17 years.
Mee was my first arsenal manager
70/71 still remains the best home season I have ever seen.
If we went 1-0 up you could put your house on us winning
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